Paine speaks in pretty stark and bold terms. I can see why that is grating. There is a level at which one chooses to identify words like ignorant as insults or facts. One can be called ignorant of something without any intent to blame the person for being ignorant. I am ignorant of many things, but it does sting to have someone call me out for being ignorant of something. In certain kinds of conversations, I want to be able to set social concerns aside for a moment and talk about a set of facts and models that we can use to organize them. As soon as we get into conversations about whether east or west is better, or whether saying someone is ignorant is an insult, the topic inevitably changes to whether we are being decent people by even having a conversation. I think it is possible to talk about east and west, and knowledge versus ignorance, without blaming people.Imwashingmypirate wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 12:08 amNever heard it worded this way. I can visualise that as making sense. I wouldn't be quick to assume that the east isn't a successful civilisation in its own right. I also wouldn't assume that is is fair (not sure is it should be fare, bit tired), to accuse people who are ignorant or inexperienced as taking it for granted. We only know what we know or what we have been led to believe. I also think it isn't good to accuse children of ignoring, neglecting and denigrating institutions. I doubt they have that much influence that it would matter. But they don't know. Not all children fight against the institution. But all adults were once children and they grow up and become part of the system.
I look at our level of individualism in the United States as a luxury that ultimately undermines civilization. I don’t blame myself for being individualistic. I see why I am. I also see how that is a problem. But, I find the whole thing attractive. There was a wonderful documentary about a libertarian BitCoin utopia in South America that worked lovely until BitCoin collapsed in value. Then the whole thing flew apart. When it was going great, I was genuinely envious and thought it would be great to do something like that. Then, when it unraveled, I saw how the whole thing was kind of an impractical pipe dream and an illusion. The whole thing is very human to me, and I am part of it while being able to step outside myself and criticique it all, including myself.
And, while I do not see civilization as monolithic or a zero-sum game, I think it is fair to say that Western civilization has transformed the globe in fundamental ways that just might be more profound than transformations in the other direction. In the end, I don’t really care. If our civilization is a gift from China that I am currently ignorant of, I will happily confess my error when it is shown to me. At the same time, Marx and Engels are the curse that China suffers with up to the present day, and they were definitely not Chinese.