Split from: In Memory of EAllusion

[Morley]

The brother of Jared was black

I missed this in Sunday School. Where do you get this? I'm not trying to be provocative. I really want to know.

[ajax18]

God loves some of his children more than others because some are more obedient than others.

lol. and there it is.

You have no LDS scripture to support that. Are you a convert, or reactivated adult member from inactive or part member family?

It can take a generation.

No, that's my personal belief and yes my father agrees with me. I'm first generation lds. I don't know of any support for it in the protestant church of my grandfather either. It's semantics. After all, what is love? It's just what I know in my heart to be true. But yes it does go against what was in my seminary manuel which said we can do nothing to change God's love for us. Some even say God loves Satan. I personally don't see outer darkness as love.

But you might look at Elder Christofferson's talk from a couple years ago titled, "The love of God." You also might look at the quote of President Nelson where he says in General Conference that when we keep our temple covenants we qualify for extra portion of Christ's love and mercy. At least to me, it seems that my views line up with the brethren. If God does love everyone equally, what good is that love to those who are cut off from his presence?

I read just the other day in the Book of Mormon where Moroni says and I paraphrase that if you come before God in an unrepentant state, you'd be more comfortable in outer darkness than in God's presence. What kind of love is that?

[Moksha]

The brother of Jared was black

I missed this in Sunday School. Where do you get this? I'm not trying to be provocative. I really want to know.

Ajax perhaps reasons that Mahonri Moriancumer (Joseph said this was the name of the Brother of Jared) sounds either black, Nephitish, or from south of the Bay of Belfalas.

[ajax18]

The brother of Jared was black

I missed this in Sunday School. Where do you get this? I'm not trying to be provocative. I really want to know.

It's part of the Heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography and in the writings of Wayne Maye and Rod Meldrum. This is absolutely not church doctrine but a theory that makes as much sense as any to me. Not that I would expect it to change someone like Veritas's view that we're all vicious racist, but yes there have been black people who are highly favored of the Lord in my opinion. But for me the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, and Raphael Warnock are not among them. So don't worry, you can still use that to call me racist.

[Res Ipsa]

I missed this in Sunday School. Where do you get this? I'm not trying to be provocative. I really want to know.

It's part of the Heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography and in the writings of Wayne Maye and Rod Meldrum. This is absolutely not church doctrine but a theory that makes as much sense as any to me. Not that I would expect it to change someone like Veritas's view that we're all vicious racist, but yes there have been black people who are highly favored of the Lord in my opinion. But for me the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, and Raphael Warnock are not among them. So don't worry, you can still use that to call me racist.

Not just the brother of Jared, but Wayne May says that all Jaredites were black (descendants of Ham) who came from England.

[ajax18]

It's part of the Heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography and in the writings of Wayne Maye and Rod Meldrum. This is absolutely not church doctrine but a theory that makes as much sense as any to me. Not that I would expect it to change someone like Veritas's view that we're all vicious racist, but yes there have been black people who are highly favored of the Lord in my opinion. But for me the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, and Raphael Warnock are not among them. So don't worry, you can still use that to call me racist.

Not just the brother of Jared, but Wayne May says that all Jaredites were black (descendants of Ham) who came from England.

Cool, I would never have guessed that you knew who Wayne Maye was.

[Morley]

I missed this in Sunday School. Where do you get this? I'm not trying to be provocative. I really want to know.

It's part of the Heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography and in the writings of Wayne Maye and Rod Meldrum. This is absolutely not church doctrine but a theory that makes as much sense as any to me. Not that I would expect it to change someone like Veritas's view that we're all vicious racist, but yes there have been black people who are highly favored of the Lord in my opinion. But for me the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright, and Raphael Warnock are not among them. So don't worry, you can still use that to call me racist.

Ah, thanks!

[Res Ipsa]

Not just the brother of Jared, but Wayne May says that all Jaredites were black (descendants of Ham) who came from England.

Cool, I would never have guessed that you knew who Wayne Maye was.

If you read the “Mormon Discussions” side of the board, it’s hard to miss him. There has been quite a bit of discussion there about the Heartlanders. The war between the Mopologists and the Heartlanders has been the subject of a number of threads here.

Having been raised LDS, it is fascinating to me to see LDS folks struggle to reconcile what Smith said in the Book of Mormon and elsewhere with later acquired knowledge about archeology, anthropology, genetics, etc.

I think it is difficult for many LDS folks to accept the tortured rationalizations of LDS academics that are necessary to maintain the limited Central American model created and clung to by the latter.

I think the Heartlanders are at least trying to take Smith’s words seriously rather than throwing him under the bus when convenient. But the claim that the Jaredites were black descendants of Ham is, in my opinion, pure crankery, even assuming that Ether is a factual account.

And that’s the biggest problem I have with the Heartland movement — it associates with and enables extremist LDS spin offs that turn violent or murderous.

Do you agree with those among the Heartlanders who claim that the peoples in the Americas from South of the US Border are not descended from Laminates?

[honorentheos]

Amazing how we can both be right, H.

So true. It's really subtext more than text in Mormonism...except it gets the bigger font treatment on Sundays, in the way members talk and live their lives. Yeah, the atonement is for everyone. Yeah, we're all children of a loving Heavenly Father. But the PoGP clearly describes hierarchies in both the pre-existence and which estate a person ends up in, the Book of Mormon is all about tying worldly success and obedience together such that Mormons equate wealth with faithfulness, and who has ever had a young women's lesson that made it clear there is no unlicking a cupcake?

I admit I appreciate the unvarnished acknowledgement of this on ajax's part.

ETA: To dig into it slightly deeper, it makes sense that a church that claims to be the restoration of not just the original Church of Christ from the 1st Century CE, but believes the same truths existed among the Israelites would absorb the historical perspective from the Old Testament that God did, in fact, play favorites. More modern Christianity attempts to reframe the narrative and abandon the old where Mormonism does not. From a non-religious perspective, it's really more interesting and, I'd say, honest. The war god YHWH was not cool with everyone equally. The Romanized Jewish faith that Paul created and has evolved is not really compatible with the original beliefs behind 1st and 2nd temple Hebrew cultural and worship. It's romantic, and ever more increasingly universal. The American frontier of Smith's day was another amalgamation of those beliefs where the New Promised Land was a gift to a faithful people leaving behind another Babylon they had beat in holy war.

[ajax18]

Do you agree with those among the Heartlanders who claim that the peoples in the Americas from South of the US Border are not descended from Laminates?

My Dad has done more research on that than me. I've heard that claim but I don't necessarily agree with it. I think it's possible that they have some Lamanite ancestry. I've had the opportunity to attend the spanish ward again since my new calling and they're definitely spiritual giants. What I do agree with is that the promised land and Adam ondi Ahma was in Missouri. Zarahemla was in Jackson County Missouri. The river Sidon was the MIssissippi. The sea east and sea west were the great lakes. The promised land was not nor was it ever Guatemala.