Split from: In Memory of EAllusion

[Res Ipsa]

Do you agree with those among the Heartlanders who claim that the peoples in the Americas from South of the US Border are not descended from Laminates?

My Dad has done more research on that than me. I've heard that claim but I don't necessarily agree with it. I think it's possible that they have some Lamanite ancestry. I've had the opportunity to attend the spanish ward again since my new calling and they're definitely spiritual giants. What I do agree with is that the promised land and Adam ondi Ahma was in Missouri. Zarahemla was in Jackson County Missouri. The river Sidon was the MIssissippi. The sea east and sea west were the great lakes. The promised land was not nor was it ever Guatemala.

Thanks. I’ve read that theory, but I don’t have a feel for how widely it is accepted.

That’s neat that you’re attending a Spanish ward. Had your Spanish stuck with you over the years? If you don’t mind me asking, what is your current calling?

[Gadianton]

I personally don't see outer darkness as love.

You're right, and I applaud your level of awareness, but you're concluding that God doesn't love everyone equally therefore you don't have to either, right? You can love the Latino branch members because they are passionate about the Church and many of them are probably Trump supporters.

I must point out the Chapel Mormon way of thinking this through is not to deny God's love, but to blame the sinner. A kind individual attempts to redeem God's love, imagining the savior with outstretched hands toward the sheep and the sheep refusing to budge. This kind person wets their pillow with their tears over the sheep's refusal, and then weeps even more over the hurt the Savior must feel for loving that sheep so much, yet the sheep refuses and turns it's fluffy little head away. A vindictive individual similarly does not deny God's love, emphasizing the sinner's choice. With a sparkle in his eye, the vindictive Saint will tell the sinner, "I'll pray for you!"

what good is that love to those who are cut off from his presence?

Right. Love is a tool in authoritarianism. As a libertarian myself, I suppose I can see how you would be confused. You're right that it is no good for the lost sheep that turns away its fluffy head. But you don't love someone because it has value for you or for the other person, it's just a reality. You love someone because you love them. If a pet dies, it does no good for me to continue to love it, possibly the opposite; nor does it do any good for the dead pet. It's just a reality -- love can be a huge burden. Thankfully, the best MAGA leaders are not burdened by it, save to the extent the love for themselves is truly love.

I have to wonder though, is it really so satisfying to live out your new-found faith in the image of identity politics? While I don't believe in God, I imagine I could change my mind one day. I'd think that if I were to believe in God, I'd want a Saul of Tarsus moment, not necessarily with a full-blown angel, but some kind of proxy for that. The advantage of synthesizing with the Infinite, should one be so lucky, is to be blown away by the unexpected. To be caught dead in my tracks completely wrong about nearly everything, and to experience the epic plot twist where I'm humbled before the greater wisdom and instructed to do things that seem very hard to do, and require actual faith.

I just don't see the point of coming to believe in God, and then discovering the scriptures teach everything I hoped to be true, right down to justifying not liking people that I already don't like. Just seems silly.

[ajax18]

But you don't love someone because it has value for you or for the other person, it's just a reality.

I'm not saying that God doesn't love unrepentant sinners. I'm just saying he doesn't love Saints and unrepentant sinners equally. I disagree with my seminary manual. I think there are things we can do to make God love us more and to love us less.

I just don't see the point of coming to believe in God, and then discovering the scriptures teach everything I hoped to be true, right down to justifying not liking people that I already don't like. Just seems silly.

"Once all things He meekly bore. But He now will bear no more." Why would I want to be heckled, mocked, shamed, and robbed by wicked people for eternity? Does that sound like Heaven to you?

But yeah, the spiritual experiences I've been blessed with in spite of my temporary apostasy, were every bit as powerful as Saul of Tarsus experienced. Before Rod Meldrum and Wayne May, I thought a global flood was impossible. I thought a young earth was impossible. I thought a historical Book of Mormon was impossible. Their research did blow me away to an extent in the way you might expect.

[honorentheos]

But you don't love someone because it has value for you or for the other person, it's just a reality.

I'm not saying that God doesn't love unrepentant sinners. I'm just saying he doesn't love Saints and unrepentant sinners equally. I disagree with my seminary manual. I think there are things we can do to make God love us more and to love us less.

Again, I appreciate the lack of facade in your comments here. I think the majority of Christians, and Mormons in particular, try to have it both ways as the Dean suggested above. God is a sun whose love radiates out equally. It's us who choose to stand in shadow.

But that's hardly how people actually behave, nor is it what the Israelites believed. They, like many others, believed they were chosen. Their enemies were God's enemies, their allies finding favor with God precisely because their allies helped God's chosen people.

Mormonism isn't a well thought out theological system, though, and much of it sits in tension precisely because its founders had different views which were voiced by a pragmatic conman trying to keep a con going to his and his family's benefit. Rigdon, Cowdery, the Whitmers, the Pratts all had very diverse ideas from which Smith constantly created a pastiche of ideas based on the needs of the moment. Alma 42 is all about this, attempting to explain how God is both just and merciful but can't forgive sin. The solution? God is bound by a higher law that even God cannot disobey. In 1829 that worked great as an answer. By the Nauvoo era God was humanity's final form where and Abraham had already achieved godhood through his obedience to the laws that dictate who becomes a god and who doesn't. After Smith, Young attempted to make it even more mundane with what we call the Adam-God theory but that failed in large measure because Young lacked the capacity to see how the wonder needed to be something that others could tap into. Having a crazy idea he thought made sense wasn't what made Smith's ideas stick, it was that others could find something in them they could attach their own thoughts and ambitions.

[yellowstone123]

Never was there a greater incentive to avoid religion entirely than to see someone of ajax's character advocate for its usefulness.

Is there anything that you specifically disagree with in Elder Uchtdorf's talk?

Not only does Uchtdorf believe what he or someone else wrote for him, he believes in a lot of other things.

[ajax18]

Having a crazy idea he thought made sense wasn't what made Smith's ideas stick, it was that others could find something in them they could attach their own thoughts and ambitions.

Jesus kind of did that for me when he said "Lay up treasures in heaven where moth nor rust doth corrupt, nor thieves break through and steal." That's a crazy idea for someone who believes that our existence ends at death. But for me it was certainly something I could attach my own thoughts and ambitions to.

Who in the early LDS church in your opinion had the idea that God loves everyone equally and we all make it to heaven whether we repent or not? Is that Calvinism? I've never believed in that idea. I never will. My leaders are well aware of that and I think they agree with me. But I think you're right that most lds wouldn't admit that they think the seminary manual was wrong as I did. Why is that? What about my view doesn't add up theologically in your opinion? I guess I don't see the conflict. But I don't see laying up treasure in heaven as selfish in a bad way. Loving Jesus and wanting what the Lord wants is the only way we really can love ourselves in my opinion.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Mormonism isn't a well thought out theological system, though, and much of it sits in tension precisely because its founders had different views..

I like to think of Mormonism being in superposition, and it isn't until the individual collapses all other states into a momentary theology does it make sense. Taking into account the individual’s proclivities, of course.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

But yeah, the spiritual experiences I've been blessed with in spite of my temporary apostasy, were every bit as powerful as Saul of Tarsus experienced. Before Rod Meldrum and Wayne May, I thought a global flood was impossible. I thought a young earth was impossible. I thought a historical Book of Mormon was impossible. Their research did blow me away to an extent in the way you might expect.

You got me there. I was never inactive growing up, but I got excited about my faith when I discovered Mormon pseudoscience and conspiracy theories, including Cleon Skousen, but it went down from there. I was into stuff even dumber than Meldrum. What you discovered seems to be what you'd been hoping for along political lines. You were already drawn to the far right, and lo and behold, right-wing Mormons had prepared the way for you. The thing is, I agree with them that Mormonism does teach that this is a Christian nation just like MTG says and we should prepare ourselves to live in a totalitarian theocracy.

I had gotten into science fiction, and so while I was into Skousen somewhat, I was more into deep prophecy like High Spy and Valo. Really embarrassing stuff though -- Immanuel Velikovsky, the hollow earth 10-tribes theory, and all of that. Of course, I was 17...

But anyway, I still grant you the point. Sure, I think your lesser commitment, science, was blown away as your greater commitment, right-wing politics, was catered to. You saw how expertly Mormon doctrine fits like a glove with unhinged conspiracy theories, and how as part of that identity package, rogue lone researchers buck traditional science authority and show everyone was wrong. So it's totally predictable.

But, you're still right, because if I think of myself, to blow away everything I believe in now -- well, there are other options, but God revealing some kind of fundamentalism to me as a great truth would fit very well with what I described and would be the most likely scenario.

[Gadianton]

Ajax,

question. If you got yourself a couple of dogs, and one dog was much better responding to commands -- "get the ball" "jump" etc. than the other, would you love that dog more in exact proportion to its obedience to you?

[ajax18]

What you discovered seems to be what you'd been hoping for along political lines.

It wasn't really about worldly politics. I started to read about near death experiences. Then I started to think spiritually. Then everything that once seemed foolish to the natural man I was, started to make perfect sense. I used to think General Conferences were so boring. I was in tears listening to Elder Gong's talk titled, "All things can work together for our good." My kids lost patience with it pretty quick but I was on the edge of my seat for that talk and it was phenomenal. I literally felt like the Nephites the next two weeks at work whose burdens the Lord made light upon their backs that they could not feel them." You probably think I'm crazy and that I've been conned out of 10% of my income. I wouldn't have understood before either. For me it's well worth it.

I was pretty convinced by evolution, 5 billion year old earth, etc. Rod could be wrong on lots of stuff but reading his ideas gave me reason to believe that science isn't as certain as I once thought. They don't know everything either. But in truth none of it matters. I believe a lot of the near death experiences. I don't believe we're just a bag of chemicals with an expiration date. And I believe in the prophet Russel M. Nelson. The LDS church is no way to try to get rich and live an easy life. But the spiritual blessings are beyond worth it. And it drives one hundred year old prophets who should have long ago been in their graves to continue to labor to inspire us and uplift us.