Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

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Markk
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:12 am
Markk wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:14 am
Drugs are bad, and so is illegal immigration....
To PG’s point, if you remove all of the illegal immigrants from the border situation, you haven’t even rid yourself of a fifth of the drug importation problem.
US Citizens Were 80 Percent of Crossers with Fentanyl at Ports of Entry from 2019 to 2024

By David J. Bier

Many people wrongly believe that immigration is critical to the illicit supply of fentanyl in the United States. However, proponents of this view have offered little more than speculation to support it. New data obtained by the Cato Institute via a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request calls this belief into question. The new dataset shows that US citizens comprised 80 percent of individuals caught with fentanyl during border crossings at ports of entry from 2019 to 2024.

The FOIA dataset contains individual records regarding each person encountered by officials at US ports of entry from whom fentanyl was seized. Figure 1 shows the citizenship of individuals arrested with fentanyl from fiscal year (FY) 2019 to 2024, as of June. Overall, the dataset reveals that out of 7,569 individuals associated with a fentanyl seizure, 6,123 were US citizens, or 80.9 percent.

The data are most relevant to understanding fentanyl seizure activity because the vast majority of fentanyl is seized at ports of entry, not between the ports where people cross illegally. Figure 2 breaks down fentanyl seizures by location. From FY 2015 to 2024, 88 percent of all fentanyl was seized at ports of entry, basically the same as in FY 2024. Another 4 percent was seized at vehicle checkpoints on highways after the ports. Only 8 percent was seized by Border Patrol on patrol, and many of those seizures came from vehicle stops as well. The seizure data supports the qualitative assessments of the Drug Enforcement Agency, Customs and Border Protection (CBP), and the Office of National Drug Policy based on investigative work. Even Bill Barr, while serving as attorney general under President Donald Trump, agreed.

Drug trafficking organizations hire US citizens because they are guaranteed the right of entry into the United States and are subject to less scrutiny at ports than individuals without citizenship. Data from the US Sentencing Commission reinforces the impression that US citizens are the primary method for fentanyl cross-border drug trafficking. From 2018 to 2023, US citizens accounted for 2,315 of the 2,905 convicted drug traffickers in southwest border districts (80 percent). The number of US citizens involved in fentanyl trafficking has risen more rapidly than it has for other traffickers since 2018.
Complete article with graphs:

https://www.cato.org/blog/us-citizens-w ... une%202024.
Yes the cartels use us citizens to bring their product across the border. I'm not sure how that changes anything. It was not PG's point, his point was fentanyl (bears) do more damage to the US than illegal immigration (mosquitos), when in reality they both have a huge affect on our country, for obviously different reasons. Who are these US citizens?

Also your article does not address those just released, and not convicted. But lets use the 20% number. According to Goggle A.I., and a article it linked to..... from 2018-22 250 thousand people died from fentanyl alone, this does not count heroin, cocaine or other drugs that come over the border. 1/5th of 250K is 50K deaths, and this does not count the those effected that will struggle the rest of their lives, or the thousands of family's destroyed. There are all kinds of stats of overdose deaths from drugs coming over the border, study them and use your 20 percent straw-man.

By comparison around 58K US service personnel died in the Vietnam war in the 19 total years or so it went on. Under 5000 were killed in the Iraq war.

Are you good with these numbers?
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canpakes
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 1:44 pm
canpakes wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 7:12 am
To PG’s point, if you remove all of the illegal immigrants from the border situation, you haven’t even rid yourself of a fifth of the drug importation problem.
Yes the cartels use us citizens to bring their product across the border. I'm not sure how that changes anything. It was not PG's point, his point was fentanyl (bears) do more damage to the US than illegal immigration (mosquitos), when in reality they both have a huge affect on our country, for obviously different reasons. Who are these US citizens?

Also your article does not address those just released, and not convicted. But lets use the 20% number. According to Goggle A.I., and a article it linked to..... from 2018-22 250 thousand people died from fentanyl alone, this does not count heroin, cocaine or other drugs that come over the border. 1/5th of 250K is 50K deaths, and this does not count the those effected that will struggle the rest of their lives, or the thousands of family's destroyed. There are all kinds of stats of overdose deaths from drugs coming over the border, study them and use your 20 percent straw-man.

By comparison around 58K US service personnel died in the Vietnam war in the 19 total years or so it went on. Under 5000 were killed in the Iraq war.

Are you good with these numbers?
You seem preoccupied with tying illegal immigration to fentanyl abuse and overdoses as a direct relationship. This doesn’t seem to be the case.

Even under the first Trump Administration, the number of US drug overdose deaths increased by 30%. Are you good with those numbers?

If this is a problem worth solving, then pretending that merely eliminating illegal immigration will resolve it will prove frustrating to you.
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Gadianton
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by Gadianton »

It's funny, Canpakes, over the course of the holidays I had a long road trip. I got bored with my usual XM stations and found my scan going farther to the right of the dial. I was appalled to discover that the farther right XM goes numerically, it also goes politically. One of the nonsense channels was Megyn Kelley, I stopped there as she's been brought up as a voice of reason on this board a few times. I listened for a couple hours.

It was eye-opening for more than one reason. The main topic was fentanyl addiction -- it might have been a re-run from a year or two ago. Two notable points 1) Megyn Kelly applauded drug-needle programs 2) Immigration wasn't mentioned in any way as a causal factor or even mentioned at all. I have to wonder if she were to re-do the show now, if she'd hurry to add a meltdown section about immigration.

I had to laugh because Markk had gone on an unhinged rant about drug-needle programs not working just shortly before my trip. That's one of those topics he probably sees recirculated in the right-wing email chains he receives and forwards out. My right-wing friend was on that one constantly. If Markk would spend 1/10th of the time he's put in studying Mormon history studying the subjects he needs to know about to argue unhinged right-wing talking points, it would be interesting if he could remain a republican for long.

Trump supporting moms are known for doing Coyote runs. It will only get better for them as the risk and prices for their services will go way up in combination to Trump's economy-wrecking plans as they may find themselves out of a day job (assuming Bezos and others can't stop him -- the silver lining of billionaires befriending him).
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Markk wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2025 5:05 pm
Doctor Steuss wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2025 6:51 pm
For reference, the "lax border policy" last year resulted in the seizure of 175,000 pounds of marijuana, 174,000 pounds of meth, 68,200 pounds of cocaine, 21,900 pounds of fentanyl, 1,200 pounds of heroin, 17,600 pounds of khat, 7,300 pounds of ketamine, 609 pounds of ecstasy, 14 pounds of LSD, and over 100,000 pounds of other illegal drugs.

As some not-so-fun math, the amount of fentanyl stopped from entering the US last year alone is enough to kill half of the world's population in a single overdose.
Which is a drop in the bucket that get over, to the cartels, that is just the cost of doing business.

More later.
Yup. The cartels can always find plenty more American citizens who will help smuggle drugs into the country, and smuggle American guns into Mexico to help the cartels remain in power. A couple American citizens being pinched trying to bring in fentanyl to fuel American appetites for illegal drugs isn't going to make them give up.

That said, I'd rather drops in a bucket, than nothing at all though. I'd hardly consider enough fentanyl to kill half of the entire world something to wave off as nothing.
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canpakes
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by canpakes »

Gadianton wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:30 pm
Megyn Kelly applauded drug-needle programs ...
Megyn has since gone a bit more delulu, as witnessed when she had an apoplectic breakdown over Taylor Swift a few months back, in trying to pin some sort of blame on her and her boyfriend over children supposedly being mutilated by crazed liberal doctors or in the back closets of random schools as part of the secret woke plot to change the gender of children during lunchtimes when no one is looking. Or somesuch.

But to her point (and with no pun intended) about needle programs, saving lives in the face of a fentanyl abuse epidemic comes down to a lot more than a belief that no illegal immigration = no fentanyl. A variety of solutions, along with a much more rational mindset, is going to yield much better results:
Across the nation, drug deaths fueled primarily by illicit fentanyl reached staggering heights by 2023, topping 100,000 for the third straight year. In the 12-month period ending in August (2024), deaths had decreased by more than 20 percent from the same period the previous year, according to provisional state data published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Government officials, researchers and public health organizations have puzzled over the reasons but speculate a decline in deaths represents a confluence of factors that vary regionally.

The Biden administration made Narcan, a nasal spray version of the overdose-reversal medication naloxone, available without a prescription and broadened access to medications to treat opioid addiction. Officials touted crackdowns on Mexican criminal groups that manufacture fentanyl and Chinese companies that supply them with chemicals needed to make the opioid.
...
Health departments and community groups that focus on drug abuse worry they might face slashed federal funding as part of the administration’s quest to overhaul spending.
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Gadianton
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

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Canpakes wrote:But to her point (and with no pun intended) about needle programs, saving lives in the face of a fentanyl abuse
Oh, she didn't have to get as far as worrying about saving any lives. Her point was that doing drugs spread disease, and those diseases can be transmitted to people who are clean.

Although, there was a grain of compassion to her views as expressed on the show. What was the deal with that? Well, the person she was interviewing had done extensive research on the lives of affected families in some upper-class community in LA. I mean, if there are rich right-wingers suffering (like Rush Limbaugh) then of course we have to take it seriously and have SOME compassion. The primary suppliers for these folks are doctors. I'm sure Republican officials who are all getting hooked up by their doctors for something are going to push to have right-wing doctors go the prison.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
Markk
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:58 pm
Markk wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 1:44 pm

Yes the cartels use us citizens to bring their product across the border. I'm not sure how that changes anything. It was not PG's point, his point was fentanyl (bears) do more damage to the US than illegal immigration (mosquitos), when in reality they both have a huge affect on our country, for obviously different reasons. Who are these US citizens?

Also your article does not address those just released, and not convicted. But lets use the 20% number. According to Goggle A.I., and a article it linked to..... from 2018-22 250 thousand people died from fentanyl alone, this does not count heroin, cocaine or other drugs that come over the border. 1/5th of 250K is 50K deaths, and this does not count the those effected that will struggle the rest of their lives, or the thousands of family's destroyed. There are all kinds of stats of overdose deaths from drugs coming over the border, study them and use your 20 percent straw-man.

By comparison around 58K US service personnel died in the Vietnam war in the 19 total years or so it went on. Under 5000 were killed in the Iraq war.

Are you good with these numbers?
You seem preoccupied with tying illegal immigration to fentanyl abuse and overdoses as a direct relationship. This doesn’t seem to be the case.

Even under the first Trump Administration, the number of US drug overdose deaths increased by 30%. Are you good with those numbers?

If this is a problem worth solving, then pretending that merely eliminating illegal immigration will resolve it will prove frustrating to you.
Are you good with illegal immigrants bringing over 20% of the fentanyl coming into our country? You did not answer that question.

In regard to your assertion I am preoccupied with tying illegal immigration to fentanyl use, that is your straw-man, from my question to Gad asserting " The decay is mostly from the drugs that come in, mostly over the southern border." ....PG then asked what the connection is between immigration and drugs.

It seems that you are trying to spin from what I wrote; that there are ..." issues, problems, and burdens from a lax border ," into one specific problem; illegal immigration bringing drugs over the border. Ironically you unwittingly showed data that agrees with the question, that according to one report that 20% of fentanyl seized, is by illegal immigrants.

I believe that if there were 250K deaths attributed to fentanyl from the dates I gave you above, then it is fair to say, that illegals attributed to the deaths of some 50k Americans.

People are dying every day from fentanyl and other drugs coming over the borders, and you seem to be okay with that, after all we do give those that are addicted free needles, and narcan to reverse overdoses.

Would you agree that these cartel drugs coming across the borders, by what any means, is a bad thing and we should aggressively try to stop it?

Mexico and Canada, as of yesterday are putting a combined 20k troops on our two borders, along with our new efforts to help mitigate this. IYO is this a good thing? Should we support these efforts?

Keep in mind just in those 4 short years I stated, fentanyl has killed about 500 percent more Americans that in the Vietnam war.
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canpakes
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:43 pm
canpakes wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2025 2:58 pm


You seem preoccupied with tying illegal immigration to fentanyl abuse and overdoses as a direct relationship. This doesn’t seem to be the case.

Even under the first Trump Administration, the number of US drug overdose deaths increased by 30%. Are you good with those numbers?

If this is a problem worth solving, then pretending that merely eliminating illegal immigration will resolve it will prove frustrating to you.
Are you good with illegal immigrants bringing over 20% of the fentanyl coming into our country? You did not answer that question.

In regard to your assertion I am preoccupied with tying illegal immigration to fentanyl use, that is your straw-man, from my question to Gad asserting " The decay is mostly from the drugs that come in, mostly over the southern border." ....PG then asked what the connection is between immigration and drugs.

It seems that you are trying to spin from what I wrote; that there are ..." issues, problems, and burdens from a lax border ," into one specific problem; illegal immigration bringing drugs over the border. Ironically you unwittingly showed data that agrees with the question, that according to one report that 20% of fentanyl seized, is by illegal immigrants.

I believe that if there were 250K deaths attributed to fentanyl from the dates I gave you above, then it is fair to say, that illegals attributed to the deaths of some 50k Americans.

People are dying every day from fentanyl and other drugs coming over the borders, and you seem to be okay with that, after all we do give those that are addicted free needles, and narcan to reverse overdoses.

Would you agree that these cartel drugs coming across the borders, by what any means, is a bad thing and we should aggressively try to stop it?

Mexico and Canada, as of yesterday are putting a combined 20k troops on our two borders, along with our new efforts to help mitigate this. IYO is this a good thing? Should we support these efforts?

Keep in mind just in those 4 short years I stated, fentanyl has killed about 500 percent more Americans that in the Vietnam war.

If I were to follow your approach to the conversation, then I’d ask you why you’re OK with the fact that 80% of the fentanyl deaths in America are being caused by Americans.

Technically, the figure is closer to 100% of the fentanyl deaths in America being caused by Americans, because those dead Americans that died from putting the fentanyl into their own mouth are pretty much almost always American.

I don’t know why you’re OK with this, and keep stressing about the folks you employ to do your company’s construction work.
Markk
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:46 pm
Markk wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 1:43 pm


Are you good with illegal immigrants bringing over 20% of the fentanyl coming into our country? You did not answer that question.

In regard to your assertion I am preoccupied with tying illegal immigration to fentanyl use, that is your straw-man, from my question to Gad asserting " The decay is mostly from the drugs that come in, mostly over the southern border." ....PG then asked what the connection is between immigration and drugs.

It seems that you are trying to spin from what I wrote; that there are ..." issues, problems, and burdens from a lax border ," into one specific problem; illegal immigration bringing drugs over the border. Ironically you unwittingly showed data that agrees with the question, that according to one report that 20% of fentanyl seized, is by illegal immigrants.

I believe that if there were 250K deaths attributed to fentanyl from the dates I gave you above, then it is fair to say, that illegals attributed to the deaths of some 50k Americans.

People are dying every day from fentanyl and other drugs coming over the borders, and you seem to be okay with that, after all we do give those that are addicted free needles, and narcan to reverse overdoses.

Would you agree that these cartel drugs coming across the borders, by what any means, is a bad thing and we should aggressively try to stop it?

Mexico and Canada, as of yesterday are putting a combined 20k troops on our two borders, along with our new efforts to help mitigate this. IYO is this a good thing? Should we support these efforts?

Keep in mind just in those 4 short years I stated, fentanyl has killed about 500 percent more Americans that in the Vietnam war.

If I were to follow your approach to the conversation, then I’d ask you why you’re OK with the fact that 80% of the fentanyl deaths in America are being caused by Americans.

Technically, the figure is closer to 100% of the fentanyl deaths in America being caused by Americans, because those dead Americans that died from putting the fentanyl into their own mouth are pretty much almost always American.

I don’t know why you’re OK with this, and keep stressing about the folks you employ to do your company’s construction work.
Non-sense. You are just once again ducking my question. My assertion was and is, that fentanyl, and other cartel drugs, coming over the border is a huge issue, of many problems, at the border. You gave me as some sort of self perceived "proof text" that illegal immigration is not related to the cartel drug trade, but it actually read that they did.

It is obvious that you did not think out your assertion and are now trying to spin away from what you wrote.

My question stands (third request); "Are you good with the 20% number" and "should we aggressively go after these illegal immigrants and prosecute them, punish them, and at some point deport them? It is not a hard question.

As far as your implication about my "approach," I strongly believe we should go after anyone smuggling these drugs across the border equally, American or Immigrant. I believe we should prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law/s.

Technically, the figure is closer to 100% of the fentanyl deaths in America being caused by Americans, because those dead Americans that died from putting the fentanyl into their own mouth are pretty much almost always American.
LOL, so why did you say in a previous post only 80 % were. Cakes you have tied yourself in a pretzel here. But yes there is fault to the users of these drugs. No doubt. But I guess you are saying here, and you can correct me if I am wrong, is that you are okay with the cartel pushing drugs here, and they bear no fault to the Americans that are dying.
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canpakes
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Re: Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:14 am
canpakes wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2025 5:46 pm
If I were to follow your approach to the conversation, then I’d ask you why you’re OK with the fact that 80% of the fentanyl deaths in America are being caused by Americans.

Technically, the figure is closer to 100% of the fentanyl deaths in America being caused by Americans, because those dead Americans that died from putting the fentanyl into their own mouth are pretty much almost always American.

I don’t know why you’re OK with this, and keep stressing about the folks you employ to do your company’s construction work.
Non-sense. You are just once again ducking my question. My assertion was and is, that fentanyl, and other cartel drugs, coming over the border is a huge issue, of many problems, at the border.
Sure it is. When has anyone argued otherwise?

What I’ve said is that your continued attempt to claim that illegal immigration is bad ‘because fentanyl’ is a weak argument, however. Yes, some fentanyl is coming across with some border crossers, but 80% of it is coming across in the arms of American citizens. There are a number of issues with having a large non-citizen population to contend with and your focus on this connection alone attempts to demonize millions of folks already here based on the actions of a tiny percentage of border crossers.

You gave me as some sort of self perceived "proof text" that illegal immigration is not related to the cartel drug trade, but it actually read that they did.
I don’t see that I made such a claim anywhere in my previous posts. Can you point to it?

It is obvious that you did not think out your assertion and are now trying to spin away from what you wrote.
It’s indeed possible that I did not think out an assertion that I did not make. That’s usually how that works.

My question stands (third request); "Are you good with the 20% number"
We could go for 19%, which would allow the American citizens importing fentanyl to account for 81% of the supply, right? And then you could still ignore them and pretend that it’s all because of the illegals.

... and "should we aggressively go after these illegal immigrants and prosecute them, punish them, and at some point deport them? It is not a hard question.
Is this your way of telling me that you’ve already forgotten that my 30-second revamping of the current immigration/citizenship system posted two years ago would even do the same to green card holders within a probationary period if they commit the same kinds of crimes?

You’re not paying attention. Bad Markk. ; )

As far as your implication about my "approach," I strongly believe we should go after anyone smuggling these drugs across the border equally, American or Immigrant. I believe we should prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law/s.
That is not ‘the approach’ I was referring to. Read that previous comment again.

Technically, the figure is closer to 100% of the fentanyl deaths in America being caused by Americans, because those dead Americans that died from putting the fentanyl into their own mouth are pretty much almost always American.
LOL, so why did you say in a previous post only 80 % were. Cakes you have tied yourself in a pretzel here. But yes there is fault to the users of these drugs. No doubt. But I guess you are saying here, and you can correct me if I am wrong, is that you are okay with the cartel pushing drugs here, and they bear no fault to the Americans that are dying.
Yes, you are wrong. : D

1. There’s nothing in my comments about cartels. You just made that up.

And,

2. Technically, and actually, 100% of the American citizens who overdose on fentanyl have absolutely been 100% killed by Americans. All of them. 100%.

Am I realllllyy going to have to explain that one to you? : )
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