W. CLEON SKOUSEN: "Expert" on Communism??

[_moksha]

Saved us from what exactly?

Saved us from being put up against the wall and shot by 'right' thinking Americans. Our Mormonism could not save us from being demonized by McCarthyism, since it knew no decency or bounds.

[_bcspace]

So, bc, are you so feeble-minded that you think J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI were "communist" or comsymps?

So ernie, are you going to answer the question as to whether or not you are a communist?

More importantly, WHY are people like yourself ALWAYS INCAPABLE of presenting a rational fact-based counter-argument and, instead, you folks ALWAYS prefer malicious ad hominem insinuations or innuendos?

What factual data have you presented other than conspiracy theories?

Are you so intellectually dishonest that you would prefer to SUPPRESS or IGNORE FACTUAL data that is inconvenient to your personal political preferences? Isn't that one of the singular characteristics of ALL totalitarian mentalities--including communists? Try looking in a mirror.

What data have I suppressed?

[_ernie1241]

So, bc, are you so feeble-minded that you think J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI were "communist" or comsymps?

So ernie, are you going to answer the question as to whether or not you are a communist?

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON IS THERE TO BELIEVE I MIGHT BE "A COMMUNIST"??

SHOULD I RESPOND IN KIND? ARE YOU A FASCIST?

I AM A LIBERTARIAN AND THE CONTEMPORARY PERSON WHOSE VIEWS MOST CLOSELY REFLECT MY OWN IS THAT FAMOUS "COMMUNIST" ---- PATRICK BUCHANAN.

More importantly, WHY are people like yourself ALWAYS INCAPABLE of presenting a rational fact-based counter-argument and, instead, you folks ALWAYS prefer malicious ad hominem insinuations or innuendos?

What factual data have you presented other than conspiracy theories?

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHAT "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" HAVE I PRESENTED? SPECIFY THEM OR ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE AN IDIOT. EVERY REPORT I HAVE PREPARED IS A SUMMARY OF DATA IN FBI FILES. WHAT "CONSPIRACY THEORY" DID I PRESENT ABOUT CLEON SKOUSEN, FOR EXAMPLE? I DEVOTE 19 PAGES TO QUOTING EXTENSIVELY FROM SKOUSEN'S FBI PERSONNEL FILE. WHAT "CONSPIRACY THEORY" IS IN THAT FILE????????

Are you so intellectually dishonest that you would prefer to SUPPRESS or IGNORE FACTUAL data that is inconvenient to your personal political preferences? Isn't that one of the singular characteristics of ALL totalitarian mentalities--including communists? Try looking in a mirror.

What data have I suppressed?

YOUR MALICIOUS ATTEMPT TO CHARACTERIZE ME AS SUBVERSIVE OR A COMMUNIST OR A PURVEYOR OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES IS AN OBVIOUS DISHONEST INTELLECTUAL DEVICE TO DISCREDIT THE REPORTS I HAVE WRITTEN WHICH ARE BASED UPON FIRST-TIME-RELEASED FBI FILES. THEREFORE, IT APPEARS YOUR TRUE PURPOSE IS SUPPRESSION OF DATA THAT YOU FIND DAMAGING TO YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS BY USE OF AD HOMINEM SLURS AND INSINUATIONS..

[_bcspace]

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON IS THERE TO BELIEVE I MIGHT BE "A COMMUNIST"??

SHOULD I RESPOND IN KIND? ARE YOU A FASCIST?

No. I am not a facist. There, now you can feel comfortable answering the questions. Are you a communist? Do you sympathize with their philosophy?

Once you answer, we can compare with any statements you make in the future to see if you are being honest. By avoiding the question, we may safely question your frame of reference.

What factual data have you presented other than conspiracy theories?

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHAT "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" HAVE I PRESENTED?

You accused first. What factual data have I suppressed?

YOUR MALICIOUS ATTEMPT TO CHARACTERIZE ME AS SUBVERSIVE OR A COMMUNIST OR A PURVEYOR OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES IS AN OBVIOUS DISHONEST INTELLECTUAL DEVICE TO DISCREDIT THE REPORTS I HAVE WRITTEN WHICH ARE BASED UPON FIRST-TIME-RELEASED FBI FILES. THEREFORE, IT APPEARS YOUR TRUE PURPOSE IS SUPPRESSION OF DATA THAT YOU FIND DAMAGING TO YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS BY USE OF AD HOMINEM SLURS AND INSINUATIONS..

All it takes is a simple yes or no answer and you can certainly qualify them if you'd like. Here I'll go first to help you feel comfortable....

Free market: Government exists to ensure the consumer is as informed as possible so as to make the best choice. Government is not to regulate price, supply, or demand. No nationalization of health care. Health care is not a right.

Socially Conservative: Death penalty, anti gay marriage, anti abortion as a general method of birth control (can accept the morning after pill). Creationism/ID should not be taught as science in public schools. Public schools should be privatized to allow the student and parents to select/customize teachers, schools, and cirriculum.

Foreign policy conservative: Iraq war not the only option but just as good as any other. I support it. I support our world-wide SOCOM opertations against terrorism. I support the breaking down of all trade barriers. Iran, China, North Korea are enemies now. Russia is going down that path. I oppose a two-state solution in Israel.

Anti illegal immigration. I support a robust border fence with Mexico. I support more legal immigration. All illegal immigrants must go to the other side of the fence to await their turn to enter legally with proper identification and papers and perhaps a chip.

We do not need to go after illegal immigrants directly. Instead, employers should be punished for hiring illegal immigrants. States should be punished for distributing welfare, schooling, and other benefits such as driver's licenses to illegal immigrants and with robust enforcement of such, I believe the problem will be solved quite rapidly.

etc.

See? That wasn't so hard.

[_ernie1241]

You don't seem to understand my point.

Nothing I have written or said or done in my lifetime could lead any normal person to wonder if I might be a Communist----so you asking me whether or not I am a Communist is completely illogical and irrational --- not to mention malicious and insulting.

Contrary to your sick logic, "avoiding" malicious, insulting and bigoted inquiries is NOT a window into one's political or ideological "frame of reference".

SHALL I ASK YOU:
Are you a child molester?
Are you a KKK member?
Are you a neo-nazi?
Are you an arsonist?
Are you an adulterer or bigamist?
Are you a convicted felon?

How long do you want to play this sick game?

So, unless you can identify, specifically, what I have written that has caused you to ask that question, all of us must conclude that your question arises from a malicious desire to defame by insinuation and innuendo----as is typical of political extremists. If you refuse to identify the basis for your question, we can all draw the logical conclusion.

Your tactic has been employed repeatedly during the past several decades---and every time it has been challenged by libel lawsuits, the defendant has lost.

I have already told you that my personal beliefs are libertarian and I associate myself with the beliefs of Patrick Buchanan. I voted twice for Ronald Reagan as Governor of California and twice more for him as President. Does that seem to you like the behavior of "a Communist" or one "sympathetic" with Communist philosophy?

Furthermore, do you know of ANY "Communist" who has EVER cited J. Edgar Hoover or the FBI as well as prominent anti-communist conservatives as reliable, trustworthy sources of information--as I have done frequently in my writings and in various discussion groups on-line?

In closing, 3 years ago when I confronted somebody like yourself who played this game, I made the following comment:

"When someone asks me what single book I recommend for a proper understanding of communism and communists, I always recommend the following 1999 book: The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression."

[/b]

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON IS THERE TO BELIEVE I MIGHT BE "A COMMUNIST"??

SHOULD I RESPOND IN KIND? ARE YOU A FASCIST?

No. I am not a facist. There, now you can feel comfortable answering the questions. Are you a communist? Do you sympathize with their philosophy?

Once you answer, we can compare with any statements you make in the future to see if you are being honest. By avoiding the question, we may safely question your frame of reference.

What factual data have you presented other than conspiracy theories?

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHAT "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" HAVE I PRESENTED?

You accused first. What factual data have I suppressed?

YOUR MALICIOUS ATTEMPT TO CHARACTERIZE ME AS SUBVERSIVE OR A COMMUNIST OR A PURVEYOR OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES IS AN OBVIOUS DISHONEST INTELLECTUAL DEVICE TO DISCREDIT THE REPORTS I HAVE WRITTEN WHICH ARE BASED UPON FIRST-TIME-RELEASED FBI FILES. THEREFORE, IT APPEARS YOUR TRUE PURPOSE IS SUPPRESSION OF DATA THAT YOU FIND DAMAGING TO YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS BY USE OF AD HOMINEM SLURS AND INSINUATIONS..

All it takes is a simple yes or no answer and you can certainly qualify them if you'd like. Here I'll go first to help you feel comfortable....

Free market: Government exists to ensure the consumer is as informed as possible so as to make the best choice. Government is not to regulate price, supply, or demand. No nationalization of health care. Health care is not a right.

Socially Conservative: Death penalty, anti gay marriage, anti abortion as a general method of birth control (can accept the morning after pill). Creationism/ID should not be taught as science in public schools. Public schools should be privatized to allow the student and parents to select/customize teachers, schools, and cirriculum.

Foreign policy conservative: Iraq war not the only option but just as good as any other. I support it. I support our world-wide SOCOM opertations against terrorism. I support the breaking down of all trade barriers. Iran, China, North Korea are enemies now. Russia is going down that path. I oppose a two-state solution in Israel.

Anti illegal immigration. I support a robust border fence with Mexico. I support more legal immigration. All illegal immigrants must go to the other side of the fence to await their turn to enter legally with proper identification and papers and perhaps a chip.

We do not need to go after illegal immigrants directly. Instead, employers should be punished for hiring illegal immigrants. States should be punished for distributing welfare, schooling, and other benefits such as driver's licenses to illegal immigrants and with robust enforcement of such, I believe the problem will be solved quite rapidly.

etc.

See? That wasn't so hard.[/quote]

[_bcspace]

SHALL I ASK YOU:

Sure.

Are you a child molester?
Are you a KKK member?
Are you a neo-nazi?
Are you an arsonist?
Are you an adulterer or bigamist?
Are you a convicted felon?

I am none of those.

How long do you want to play this sick game?

For as long as you won't answer the questions.

Are you a communist? Do you sympathize with their philosophy? What factual data have I suppressed?

[_ernie1241]

I have answered your question concerning my beliefs two or more times.

Since you refuse to answer my question concerning the basis of your malicious innuendos and insinuations, it is now inescapable that we should conclude that you are not an honorable person.

For anyone reading this exchange, notice that at no point during this exchange does "bcspace" ask any question whatsoever which pertains to the substance of this thread which is on the background of W. Cleon Skousen.

Instead, bcspace prefers ad hominem slurs and innuendos because he (or she) does not have the capacity to engage in principled, amicable discussion of the factual evidence I have presented.

Political extremists seek to divert attention from the intellectual deficiencies of their positions by engaging in malicious attacks (usually through sinister innuendo) regarding the reputation, character, and/or patriotism of their perceived opponents. Political extremists are incapable of addressing factual evidence -- which is why J. Edgar Hoover commented during his Warren Commission testimony that extremists of both the left and right are dangerous to our freedoms.

SHALL I ASK YOU:

Sure.

Are you a child molester?
Are you a KKK member?
Are you a neo-nazi?
Are you an arsonist?
Are you an adulterer or bigamist?
Are you a convicted felon?

I am none of those.

How long do you want to play this sick game?

For as long as you won't answer the questions.

Are you a communist? Do you sympathize with their philosophy? What factual data have I suppressed?

[_ernie1241]

Additional information concerning my research and links to all my reports may be found here: http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/home

Any serious critic may contact me at ernie1241@aol.com to present their questions or comments.

[_bcspace]

Political extremists seek to divert attention from the intellectual deficiencies of their positions by engaging in malicious attacks (usually through sinister innuendo) regarding the reputation, character, and/or patriotism of their perceived opponents. Political extremists are incapable of addressing factual evidence -- which is why J. Edgar Hoover commented during his Warren Commission testimony that extremists of both the left and right are dangerous to our freedoms.

Actually, the political extremists are the ones who attempt to hide their political affiliations or answer questions about what they believe. Where you are comming from is an important piece of information that allows us to gauge the meaning of your conclusions and what information you might have missed or are biased against.

[_ernie1241]

Honest researchers report what they find---and they do not care if the data they present is approved or disapproved by any particular audience.

A researcher's personal political preferences are usually irrelevant because, ultimately, their writings depend upon the merits (or lack of same) of the substantive content of what is presented and the documentation used to substantiate whatever is presented.

For example: suppose someone intends to write a biography of some well-known political personality. If the author is an intellectually honest researcher, he/she will research all available sources of credible data---particularly PRIMARY source materials which may not have been previously used.

Furthermore, if and when derogatory statements are made about the subject, the author will provide specific verifiable factual evidence which anyone can check for themselves to confirm that it is accurate, in context, and fair.

ONLY IF it can be shown that a researcher has a PATTERN of presenting false information or the researcher presents data which is based upon gossip, rumor, hearsay, etc. ---THEN it might be appropriate to consider their personal beliefs or ideology---as a reflection of bias.

I have already answered your questions about what I believe and what viewpoints I associate myself with.

SO: What relevance do my beliefs have with respect to my Skousen report or any other report I have written?

Is there ANYTHING in ANY of my reports which you think is inaccurate or misquoted or taken out of context or not properly documented?

If so, have the decency to specify your objections instead of engaging in childish and malicious ad hominem insinuations.

A final point:
Anybody who reads my reports knows that I present voluminous data from FBI files which is VERY derogatory about the Birch Society and its assertions. Nevertheless, as far back as the 1960's and as recently as this week I have DEFENDED the Birch Society against critics who have presented unfair, inaccurate and malicious criticisms. For example: I wrote and posted on-line a lengthy rebuttal to the fabrications of extreme right-wing conspiracy theorist Eustace Mullins about what he claims were the origins of the Birch Society. I also have posted critiques of left-wing diatribes about the Society.

And you are also quite mistaken when you write that "political extremists are the ones who attempt to hide their political affiliations.".

Usually, they boldly proclaim their associations and they then claim that they are morally and intellectually superior to all others.

Political extremists usually proclaim that they are in possession of an Ultimate Final Truth and if you don't acknowledge it, then YOU must be intellectually defective, and/or "brainwashed", or "a dupe" or an "agent" of some conspiratorial group.

All of us still have no clue WHY you are posting messages in this thread. I ask you again: is there something in my Skousen report that upsets you? If so, spit it out and stop your silly games.

Political extremists seek to divert attention from the intellectual deficiencies of their positions by engaging in malicious attacks (usually through sinister innuendo) regarding the reputation, character, and/or patriotism of their perceived opponents. Political extremists are incapable of addressing factual evidence -- which is why J. Edgar Hoover commented during his Warren Commission testimony that extremists of both the left and right are dangerous to our freedoms.

Actually, the political extremists are the ones who attempt to hide their political affiliations or answer questions about what they believe. Where you are comming from is an important piece of information that allows us to gauge the meaning of your conclusions and what information you might have missed or are biased against.