Should nontaxpayers be allowed to vote?

[_just me]

Then again, maybe only literate white male property owners should be allowed to vote.

Don't forget they must go to church and teach Sunday School every week.

And not masturbate.

[_ajax18]

I guess it would be easy to paint such a requirement as similar to the old English class system where only property owners voted.

But we're not talking about whether wealth and priviledge should determine one's influence in politics. We're simply asking if we can distinguish between working people and nonworking people.

[_Bond James Bond]

I guess it would be easy to paint such a requirement as similar to the old English class system where only property owners voted.

But we're not talking about whether wealth and priviledge should determine one's influence in politics. We're simply asking if we can distinguish between working people and nonworking people.

Mitt Romney is currently unemployed. Can he vote?

But the problem is that while there is a segment of society that *refuses* to work, most people want to work. They just can't find jobs right now because we're slowly treading out of a major recession. But too many caveats have to be drawn out for your argument to make it feasible. What about our elderly? They're not working anymore. What about disabled people? What constitutes work, because Anne Romney has never worked a paying job as she freely admits? What about stay at home moms/dads?

[_krose]

More of your misinformed welfare rants.

Here is the truth:

About 45% of US households end up not owing a federal income tax. That doesn't mean they don't pay any taxes. It doesn't even mean they don't pay federal taxes. All it means is that they don't pay a federal income tax.

They pay the Social Security tax and the Medicare tax (not to mention state income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes). You would be hard pressed to find someone who pays to taxes at all.

So who are these people who don't owe on their 1040 form? Many of them are retired or disabled people living on Social Security. Others don't make enough money to be in the lowest tax bracket, including a lot of unemployed people. Then there are those who manage to find enough deductions to reduce their tax to zero.

I agree that the tax system needs reforming. Any time a quarter billionaire (Romney) gets away with paying a lower percentage than most of the middle class, it's a real problem. But this notion that half the country are freeloaders is just plain nonsense.

[_ajax18]

Mitt Romney is currently unemployed. Can he vote?

Fair enough. I never said capitalism didn't have problems. I'd be fine with not allowing Ann Romney to vote unless she goes to work.

They just can't find jobs right now because we're slowly treading out of a major recession.

Then why do we need so many immigrants to come and join our labor force if there aren't enough jobs available? I'm all for workers rights and increasing wages, but it will never happen as long as we continue to demand mass immigration and nonenforcement of the border.

What about our elderly? They're not working anymore.

I don't believe the elderly have a right to retire just because they put in so many years. If they can afford to retire fine, but they have no right to collect government money if they are not disabled. Every able person should work. Disabled people should be put to work doing something even if they might be disabled for a particular type of job.

Krose your view of the Republican party as a minority of elitist is over. Eventually, even "low effort thinking," people are going to realize who is doing the work, and who is getting the benefit. The new Republican party is not made of up millionaires, but rather simple minded hardworking men and even women who are tired of paying for others not to work, in other words the other 50% who do pay federal taxes. That's what has this country polarized, not race, religion, gender or any other crazy kind of division. There are workers and nonworkers. All other issues are insignificant.

[_Bond James Bond]

Then why do we need so many immigrants to come and join our labor force if there aren't enough jobs available? I'm all for workers rights and increasing wages, but it will never happen as long as we continue to demand mass immigration and nonenforcement of the border.

Nonenforcement of the border? America tries, but it's a long border. What can you do if someone wants in? Drone attacks?

Those vaunted fences the US is building? Here's video from Penn and Teller's tv show BS! where some illegal immigrants build a section of border fence to code and then proceed to go through it in about thirty seconds. So a double fence would last approximately a minute while costing billions. Immigration can be handled far more easily. Amnesty and get them paying taxes instead of working under the table for cash.

What about our elderly? They're not working anymore.

I don't believe the elderly have a right to retire just because they put in so many years. If they can afford to retire fine, but they have no right to collect government money if they are not disabled.

That's a fine idea in the abstract and a lot of people are going to continue working out of boredom and to supplement their income. But should a 95 year old woman really be forced to keep working? I'm heartless but damn.

Every able person should work. Disabled people should be put to work doing something even if they might be disabled for a particular type of job.

Who is going to find jobs for paraplegics? Some newly created government agency? And who is going to force businesses to hire these people? The government?

[_ajax18]

I really wouldn't see a problem allowing Anne Romney to vote. In a way she has a right to her husbands money that she can take by divorce if she desires to do so. So when he is taxed, she is being taxed just the same. As far as I'm concerned that's a sacrifice/contribution on her part, and would make her eligible to vote.

But should a 95 year old woman really be forced to keep working? I'm heartless but damn.

A lot of times people live longer and are healthier when they do have to continue to work. When you don't do anything, often times that becomes all you can do

Who is going to find jobs for paraplegics? Some newly created government agency? And who is going to force businesses to hire these people? The government?

Being paraplegic is a tough situation and you may not be able to find a job for every person, but we should be striving to do so. As it is now there are people who get disability for dry eye and thus do no work. Perhaps they'd be better off working in the field than behind a computer.

[_Jason Bourne]

More of your misinformed welfare rants.

Here is the truth:

About 45% of US households end up not owing a federal income tax. That doesn't mean they don't pay any taxes. It doesn't even mean they don't pay federal taxes. All it means is that they don't pay a federal income tax.

They pay the Social Security tax and the Medicare tax (not to mention state income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes). You would be hard pressed to find someone who pays to taxes at all.

They only pay Social Security and Medicare Tax if they have wages or earned income from a business.

Everyone pays sales tax if they buy something. Everyone pays gas tax who puts gas in a tank.

So who are these people who don't owe on their 1040 form? Many of them are retired or disabled people living on Social Security. Others don't make enough money to be in the lowest tax bracket, including a lot of unemployed people. Then there are those who manage to find enough deductions to reduce their tax to zero.

Correct.

I agree that the tax system needs reforming. Any time a quarter billionaire (Romney) gets away with paying a lower percentage than most of the middle class, it's a real problem. But this notion that half the country are freeloaders is just plain nonsense.

This is because the bulk of his income is capital gains and dividends which are taxed at a lower rate for reason that are arguably good. And FYI, dividends are double taxed. The corporation pays tax in the profits the generates the cash which is paid out in dividends. The effective tax rate on dividends is often upwards of 40%-50%.

[_krose]

They only pay Social Security and Medicare Tax if they have wages or earned income from a business.

Everyone pays sales tax if they buy something. Everyone pays gas tax who puts gas in a tank.

I assumed that went without saying.

This is because the bulk of his income is capital gains and dividends which are taxed at a lower rate for reason that are arguably good. And FYI, dividends are double taxed. The corporation pays tax in the profits the generates the cash which is paid out in dividends. The effective tax rate on dividends is often upwards of 40%-50%.

I know the reason. I just don't believe there is any good incentive reason to tax capital gains at a lower rate. Do we really think people won't invest if they can't get that low rate? What other option do they have? You can't get a decent return by holding cash, and I don't see anyone holding onto assets forever just because they would have to pay a higher tax if they sell. I believe the lower rates are in place purely because of lobbying by the rich.

I think the double taxation logic is bogus. It's paid by different entities, and all money is taxed at multiple points as it cycles around in the system. Just because I have already paid taxes on my income does not mean the store where I spend it doesn't have to pay on the profit they make from that money.

[_Jason Bourne]

The double tax on dividends is certainly not bogus. It is direct direct and the same dollars. It is why tax law allows for an S corp to avoid the double tax because S Corps are typically small closely held businesses. Some argue a corporation should be able to either deduct dividends or pay no tax on profits.

You taxed dollars that you spend at the store are not directly profits to the owners. It may go to fund payroll or other business expenses. Dividends are the net profits of a business.