Birds of a Feather...

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_Bob Loblaw
_Emeritus
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:26 am

Re: Birds of a Feather...

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Droopy wrote:Well, "moderate" is just another term for "liberal" where "liberal" means "less radical than the mainstream Left." "Moderate" is almost always a term that attempts to mask generally left-leaning, statist, interventionist positions on economic and government scope issues and libertine/liberal positions on social issues but doesn't want to be associated with "the Left."


Which would explain why I said I'm not a moderate, but perhaps you missed that. I do not believe in statist, interventionist positions on economic and government scope issues. I never have. I opposed the bank bailouts and the auto bailouts, cash for clunkers, TARP, and so on.

Pursuant to this, what do you mean by your use of the term "rabid" here? What is a "rabid" position on abortion vs. a "moderate" position, and what is the moderate position as compared to the Leftist position?


I think the conservative position is, or ought to be, limited government intervention, but not just in economic policy. If we believe in limited government (and I do), we shouldn't be advocating for government to intrude on the personal decisions of citizens. Rabid conservatism to me is the kind of belief system that says Big Brother is terrible in some aspects but to be welcomed in others. That's what I don't agree with.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Birds of a Feather...

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Secret deals with Iran's religious radicals are just awful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_contra
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Birds of a Feather...

Post by _Droopy »

Bond James Bond wrote:Secret deals with Iran's religious radicals are just awful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_contra



Time to get just a bit of education, Bond, do a bit of serious reading, and avoid Wiki.

The entire point of the arms-for-hostages deal was to contact moderate elements within Iran who had some influence on the Iranian government. The idea was to keep those arms in the hands of those moderate, anti-fundamentalist elements, while hoping they would broker the release of political prisoners.

The whole idea may have been ill-conceived, but it can hardly be compared to the present administration's feckless, appeasement based, social workeresque approach to dealing with the mullahs. Unlike Obama, Reagan saw no moral equivalence between the Islamist world and Israel (nor between the West and the communist world, also the entrenched position of the Left in that era).
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Bob Loblaw
_Emeritus
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:26 am

Re: Birds of a Feather...

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Droopy wrote:Time to get just a bit of education, Bond, do a bit of serious reading, and avoid Wiki.

The entire point of the arms-for-hostages deal was to contact moderate elements within Iran who had some influence on the Iranian government. The idea was to keep those arms in the hands of those moderate, anti-fundamentalist elements, while hoping they would broker the release of political prisoners.


That is the worst attempt to spin the Iran-Contra mess I've ever heard. They were giving weapons and spare parts to the Iranian government. How in the hell was that supposed to keep them out of the hands of the fundamentalists?

The whole idea may have been ill-conceived, but it can hardly be compared to the present administration's feckless, appeasement based, social workeresque approach to dealing with the mullahs. Unlike Obama, Reagan saw no moral equivalence between the Islamist world and Israel (nor between the West and the communist world, also the entrenched position of the Left in that era).


I'm no fan of Obama's foreign policy, but you're all wet when it comes to Iran-Contra. Here's Victor Davis Hanson:

Iran-Contra was as serious because there was a veritable war inside the Reagan administration over helping insurgents with covert cash that had in part been obtained by, despite denials, selling arms to enemy Iran to free hostages — all against U.S. laws and therefore off the radar. The Reagan administration was left looking weak, hypocritical, incompetent, and amoral — and never quite recovered. Yet even here the media soon covered the story in detail, and their disclosures led to several resignations and full congressional hearings.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Birds of a Feather...

Post by _Droopy »

That is the worst attempt to spin the Iran-Contra mess I've ever heard.


It happens to accord with the historical facts.

They were giving weapons and spare parts to the Iranian government. How in the hell was that supposed to keep them out of the hands of the fundamentalists?


I said that was the point of it all - the theory, not the "mess" itself. And who was "they?"

I'm no fan of Obama's foreign policy, but you're all wet when it comes to Iran-Contra. Here's Victor Davis Hanson:

Iran-Contra was as serious because there was a veritable war inside the Reagan administration over helping insurgents with covert cash that had in part been obtained by, despite denials, selling arms to enemy Iran to free hostages — all against U.S. laws and therefore off the radar. The Reagan administration was left looking weak, hypocritical, incompetent, and amoral — and never quite recovered. Yet even here the media soon covered the story in detail, and their disclosures led to several resignations and full congressional hearings.


http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/ ... ffair.html

The Iran–Contra affair[1] (Persian: ماجرای مک‌فارلین, Spanish: caso Irán-contras) was a political scandal in the United States that came to light in November 1986. During the Reagan administration, President Ronald Reagan and other senior U.S. officials secretly facilitated the sale of arms to Iran, the subject of an arms embargo.[2] At least some U.S. officials also hoped that the arms sales would secure the release of hostages and allow U.S. intelligence agencies to fund the Nicaraguan Contras. Under the Boland Amendment, further funding of the Contras by the Reagan administration had been prohibited by Congress.

The affair began as an operation to improve U.S.-Iranian relations. It was planned that Israel would ship weapons to a relatively moderate, politically influential group of Iranians, and then the U.S. would resupply Israel and receive the Israeli payment. The Iranian recipients promised to do everything in their power to achieve the release of six U.S. hostages, who were being held by the Lebanese Shia Islamist group Hezbollah, who in turn were connected to the Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution. The plan deteriorated into an arms-for-hostages scheme, in which members of the executive branch sold weapons to Iran in exchange for the release of the American hostages.[3][4] Large modifications to the plan were devised by Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North of the National Security Council in late 1985, in which a portion of the proceeds from the weapon sales was diverted to fund anti-Sandinista and anti-communist rebels, or Contras, in Nicaragua.[5][6]

While President Ronald Reagan was a supporter of the Contra cause,[7] no conclusive evidence has been found showing that he authorized the diversion of the money raised by the Iranian arms sales to the Contras.[3][4][8] Handwritten notes taken by Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger indicate that Reagan was aware of potential hostages transfers with Iran, as well as the sale of Hawk and TOW missiles to "moderate elements" within that country.[9] Oliver North, one of the central figures in the affair, wrote in a book that "Ronald Reagan knew of and approved a great deal of what went on with both the Iranian initiative and private efforts on behalf of the contras and he received regular, detailed briefings on both." Mr. North also writes: "I have no doubt that he was told about the use of residuals for the contras, and that he approved it. Enthusiastically."[10] North's account is difficult to verify because of the secrecy that still surrounds the affair.


It would appear that both Dr. Hanson and I are correct. The entire fiasco was a bit more complex than "Reagan sold arms to Iran."

The Princeton article is a bit sloppy in one particular, and that's its treatment of the Boland Amendments. Those laws only prohibited the use of government funds to support the Contras. North was soliciting funds from private citizens and other outside sources, not trying to funnel tax funds to the program. It did circumvent the will of Congress, but was not "illegal" in any salient sense.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
Post Reply