What is conservatism?

[_Albion]

Your point is taken which is perhaps the inference I was seeking. Who in their right mind can argue that the lot of Americans is better today than say in the thirties when such programs did not exist? The problem, as I see it, with social programs is the abuse that goes on within them but I do not see that as any reason to scrap the essential program but a real reason to do a better job of policing.

[_ldsfaqs]

Is Social Security liberal...how about Medicade and Medicare?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Also liberal: food safety regulations; clean water regulations; laws against child labor; laws against spouse abuse; banning slavery; allowing women to vote, get an education, and hold a job; support for religious freedom...

Problem is that ZERO of those are "liberal"..... Further, liberals didn't ban slavery moron, conservatives did. Also, you also seem to be confusing "classical liberal" which was conservative & libertarian, a.k.a. from the root "liber" i.e. FREEDOM.

The modern liberal is from the Progressive, Socialist, Communist, & Fascist schools of thought.
Concerning America, Progressives from the early 1900's found that Progressive became a bad word, and so given that they are masters of word manipulation they co-opted the word "liberal" to try and make themselves seem less bad. Now if you hadn't noticed many of them are trying to go back to Progressive because now Liberal is a bad word.

Read the book "Liberal Fascism" Krose to start with and start learning something.

[_ajax18]

Who in their right mind can argue that the lot of Americans is better today than say in the thirties when such programs did not exist?

We haven't really paid the price for those programs yet. We've just taken out more debt. If social security, disability, SNAP (food stamps), TANF (welfare), wic, medicare, Medicaid, energy assistance, section 8 housing, and Obama phones were all gone tomorrow I'd be forever grateful. I've paid and continue to pay way more into that than I'd ever collect. Paying my own retirement, disability insurance etc. and then paying it for everyone else in the form of income taxation is becoming crippling taxation for many middle class Americans. Many are now graduating college only to find their financial situation actually gets worse. That's some reward for graduation. Hence they stay in school longer to get another worthless degree to rack up even more debt.

The problem, as I see it, with social programs is the abuse that goes on within them but I do not see that as any reason to scrap the essential program but a real reason to do a better job of policing.

Policing would be good for my spirit but even I understand that policing itself costs more money still. Government officials aren't exactly impartial when it comes to doling out the welfare. It's not always need based but rather who is able to look more poor on paper or perhaps even who has a friend working at the welfare office.

[_Albion]

So, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and all the other programs you mentioned end tomorrow. What happens to those whose lives depend on those programs?

[_krose]

In the gospel according to mo-fax, Democrats were always liberal and Republicans were always conservative. Therefore, slavery was protected and defended by liberals, and opposed by conservatives.

Of course that means someone like Zell Miller, who blasted the Democratic Party at the Republican Convention for moving from a conservative to a liberal party ("I didn't change; they left me," he said), is just a LIAR. Similarly, there are others who left the Republican Party because it became conservative. Also dirty LIARS.

[_ajax18]

So, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and all the other programs you mentioned end tomorrow. What happens to those whose lives depend on those programs?

That's the biggest problem with starting those programs. People begin to depend on them nor do they feel any shame about taking advantage of it. Stopping it now is politically impossible and so is getting the country out of debt. The bigger questions are,
"What is going to happen to the entire country when there are more people in the wagon than there are to pull it. What's going to happen when the entire country is in the same situation as Detroit?"

I believe that if you earn the money, it should be your right to give it away or not. They'll have to beg from the people doing the work directly. If they don't like that, perhaps they'll find another way to make it. For those that have lived off the government for many generations, that way of life will cease. Perhaps we won't need so many immigrants to come into the country to fill jobs Americans won't do. Secure the border and perhaps employers will pay a more fair wage for that labor when they don't have an unlimited supply of impoverished people to choose from.

Rights should be inseparably connected to responsibilities. If you don't pay income taxes you shouldn't have a right to vote. That includes college students, welfare recipients, and social security recipients. Just because you reach 55 or 60 years of age, shouldn't mean you now have the right to stay home and collect a check. If you're healthy enough to be working, you should be working.

[_Albion]

Ah, so a return to the way things were before such programs. A wonderful time for all levels of society....not.

[_krose]

Ah, so a return to the way things were before such programs. A wonderful time for all levels of society....not.

What's the big deal? So a few million elderly people and kids are kicked into poverty, with no health insurance. So they have to eat cat food and go without medicine. At least we'll all have a few more bucks in our bank accounts. I need a boat, dammit.

Old people should have earned more while they still could, and kids should have been born to richer parents. They have no right to be sponging off the rest of us.

[_Albion]

Yes, after all we all grow up in a vacuum, right?

[_ajax18]

At least we'll all have a few more bucks in our bank accounts.

I didn't say working people would have more money for luxuries. My main argument is reconnecting the giver and the receiver rather than dehumanizing it with federal socialism.