Doc, Homless in LA

[_Markk]

Mental institutions are historically bad enough that yes, you would be much better off wandering the streets than taking your chances in one. You value real world experience, so take it as someone who has actual experience with people who were institutionalized historically and people who have been placed in institutions recently. It's somewhere in-between being sent to a jail, a CIA black site, and a community center.

But happily are choices aren't between do nothing and involuntary commitment in an institution. There are a vast array of community-based mental health resources that are used to help people where there is chronic under-funding relative to the scope of the problem. Community-based treatment has the triple benefit of being more humane, cheaper, and more effective. I can't speak to your local situation, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be hard to find papers and articles who could if you were looking.

The three big causes of persistent homelessness are domestic violence, drug/alcohol addiction, and pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability. Each needs its own set of different, but overlapping responses in terms of how you fold people into the "system" and get resources to them so they can have stable housing. That's why what goes on in a domestic violence center is different than, say, a program to get someone on MA to pay for anti-psychotics and med admin follow-up they sorely need. I work with the disabled due to mental illness population and can describe in a lot of detail how it works locally and what we could use to do our job better, but I'm sure it's a little different where you are as it would be anywhere.

So how do these folks that are wandering the streets...who haven't changed their clothes in months or years...who just wander through the streets talking to themselves seek and receive help? Do you think they will make appointments and make sure they are followed up on.

EA...these are people that can't even wash their hands or faces. They stink beyond all belief, and you can't communicate with them. I have seen them pee and crap on the sidewalk during the day, why people in suits and ties walk by. And some how they are going to seek help, take their meds, and do follow ups?

You really need to take a visit down here, you would change your mind.

[_Markk]

I don't know if this is true of So-Cal, but nationally there's a huge shortage of Methadone clinics for reasons that are too complicated to get into at the moment. If I had to guess, I'd bet that more maintenance opiate treatment is needed in the areas you are describing as needle-ridden.

LOL, I am sorry but you are naïve here. The very most of these people don't want methadone EA...you are living in a bubble. You can get black tar on the streets cheaper and easier than other drugs. You seem to act as if these folks are responsible people seeking help. They are addicts, thieves, liars, gang members, sick people...very few seek help once they get to the streets.

Do you think that there are teams of counselors that wander the streets and neighborhoods of So Ca that offer this treatment?

I am sorry, you just do not have a clue of what is happening.

[_EAllusion]

So how do these folks that are wandering the streets...who haven't changed their clothes in months or years...who just wander through the streets talking to themselves seek and receive help? Do you think they will make appointments and make sure they are followed up on.

Some seek and receive help or have family who do the same for them. Others are reported based on their behavior to a party such as the police that ultimately makes its way to some form of social services, who then know how to take steps to connect people to resources they can take advantage of (if those exist). Social services also use their connections to just go out and find people. Homeless people often congregate to resources for the homeless, such as day-shelters. This casts a wide net. The problem isn't in not knowing how to identify and connect with people who need help. It's in having enough qualified people to do that or enough help to offer.

And some how they are going to seek help, take their meds, and do follow ups?

I personally oversee some programs involving mentally ill, disabled people taking their meds and doing follow-ups who otherwise would be homeless. So, yeah, quite possibly yes?

You really need to take a visit down here, you would change your mind.

Lol. Now you're telling me I need to have your real-world experience with what I have real world experience doing that you do not.

[_EAllusion]

LOL, I am sorry but you are naïve here. The very most of these people don't want methadone EA...you are living in a bubble. You can get black tar on the streets cheaper and easier than other drugs. You seem to act as if these folks are responsible people seeking help. They are addicts, thieves, liars, gang members, sick people...very few seek help once they get to the streets.

Do you think that there are teams of counselors that wander the streets and neighborhoods of So Ca that offer this treatment?

I am sorry, you just do not have a clue of what is happening.

You've already established that you don't believe in research, but suffice to say, there is plenty of evidence that access to methadone clinics drives down the rate of harm caused by opiate addiction where they are available.

[_EAllusion]

That community based resources for most people most of the time do a much more effective job with mental health treatment outcomes than institutions is something that was debated and settled over 40 years ago. Seems like you might be a touch behind the times if you think that's just a crazy idea that will never work.

One of the arguments against deinstitutionalization was that people would lose the constant access to teams of doctors that people had at their beckon in an institutional setting, so their health outcomes would be poorer and they'd die sooner. This at least makes some intuitive sense and if you read the arguments at the time, a lot of the counter response is focused on just arguing its worth it because a higher quality, shorter life is the one worth living. What ended up happening is that people who went on to live in the community ended up having vastly improved life expectancy relative to institutional numbers. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is because living in bondage isn't good for your health. And yeah, that's a sign that if someone's making you choose between being committed and living on the streets, I'd start looking for your favorite tent city.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Markk,

You're just seeing the free market assert itself right now, and Libertarian choice-based service providers are solving the problem. You're just choosing to ignore reality because you're a racist stuck in the 50's. If the government would just step aside, markets would adjust accordingly and all those people would soon be living in homes built to cater to their niche market.

- Doc

[_ajax18]

It looks like northern Mexico. Which side of the border were you on again? I think I saw Schreech's house.

The videos don't really do it justice because you don't see how long these tent cities go on. You need a smell cam as well.

[_subgenius]

and there are some pretty nice REI tents...better quality camping on streets of Santa Monica...can your next video show those? the juxtaposition with the high end shopping is oh so California.

[_EAllusion]

Markk,

You're just seeing the free market assert itself right now, and Libertarian choice-based service providers are solving the problem. You're just choosing to ignore reality because you're a racist stuck in the 50's. If the government would just step aside, markets would adjust accordingly and all those people would soon be living in homes built to cater to their niche market.

- Doc

The idea that all libertarians, or even most, reject any social safety net policies is false.

In another thread just days ago you were agreeing with a common libertarian argument that zoning law is a major contributor to homelessness in California. Now you think this situation exists in a pure free market? What caused you to change opinion so quickly?

How quickly do homeless victims of domestic abuse need to be sterilized in Doctopia after you help them access affordable housing? Is it even before they get in, or would you allow a grace period?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Markk,

You're just seeing the free market assert itself right now, and Libertarian choice-based service providers are solving the problem. You're just choosing to ignore reality because you're a racist stuck in the 50's. If the government would just step aside, markets would adjust accordingly and all those people would soon be living in homes built to cater to their niche market.

- Doc

The idea that all libertarians, or even most, reject any social safety net policies is false.

In another thread just days ago you were agreeing with a common libertarian argument that zoning law is a major contributor to homelessness in California. Now you think this situation exists in a pure free market? What caused you to change opinion so quickly?

How quickly do homeless victims of domestic abuse need to be sterilized in Doctopia after you help them access affordable housing? Is it even before they get in, or would you allow a grace period?

You're right, of course. My apologies.

Respectfully,

Dr. CamNC4Me