Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

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_Xenophon
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Xenophon »

DoubtingThomas wrote:If death is the most severe punishment, then why do most mass shooters end up killing themselves?

Because most mass shooters are suicidal. This article deals mostly with school shooters, but the profiling isn't too different.

From the article wrote:Randazzo described a pattern of young people who were deeply depressed, unable to cope with their lives, who saw no other way out of a bad situation. The stressors they faced wouldn’t necessarily be problems that an adult would see as especially traumatic, but these young people were unable to handle their emotions, sadness and anger, and they started acting in ways that were, essentially, suicidal.

Some of the best data on the mental state of school shooters has come from interviews with those shooters (and would-be shooters) who survived the attack. Randazzo described one such living school shooter, currently serving multiple life sentences, who told her that before the attack he spent weeks vacillating between suicide and homicide. Only after he tried and failed to kill himself did he settle on killing others in hopes that someone would kill him. Garbarino, who has interviewed dozens of people who went to prison for life as teenagers, both for school shootings and other violent crimes, heard many similar stories.
Emphasis mine.

I think trying to use suicide rates is a specious argument to defending life in prison over execution, they are really different animals. If our prison system was better, offered more mental health services, I doubt you would see suicide rates where they are currently at (especially after the 2013 drastic rise in them).

Again, I feel like I need to state that I am opposed to the death penalty and our for-profit prison state in general. I just feel like there are WAY better arguments against it than which punishment is arbitrarily "more severe".
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Themis
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Themis »

Markk wrote:I worked with a middle eastern guy years ago, and I asked him how they would handle a convicted murderer...I think is was during the OJ trial or similar...he said “Mark (roll the R) a bullet it is 25 cents.”

It would be an interesting search to see ho wither country’s handle a death penalty.


It's called mob justice Markk, and there are many reasons we do not tolerate it, even if the person may deserve it. If you know anything about the middle east I suspect you would not want to live in those societies and their justice systems, other then Israel which has a system like western countries.

It's a terrible idea to have family decide punishment for many reasons, one being they will not all agree on what the proper punishment should be. Another is that allowing family to decide means they can have a family member killed, as we see in certain countries, then have that family forgive the murder and they go free.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_subgenius
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _subgenius »

DoubtingThomas wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/us/nikolas-cruz-death-penalty.html

Give Nikolas Cruz the death penalty only if he has some serious psychiatric disorder. Why? Because I see the death penalty as an act of mercy.

Life in prison is far worst than the death penalty. With the death penalty he only gets a quick and painless death. If he gets executed, Nikolas won't get old and won't die of some painful cancer or something else. It is true Nikolas is probably more afraid of the death penalty, but being afraid of death is natural. We humans evolved to be afraid of death. It doesn't mean the death penalty is somehow a more severe punishment. Why are judges and law-makers so stupid?

Is there someone here that agrees with my view? Or am I completely alone with some strange way to look at things?


I don't know if it is so much strange as perhaps just less sophisticated? or less developed?
First, understand that because of automatic, and other available, appeals the death penalty likely won't be administered for at least 16+ years.
Second, there is this whole cruel and unusual punishment principle among a mature society of people.

So, while you may see that our modern society must fall back to an "eye for eye" mentality perhaps there is more credence in "looking at it" as to why you personally want this guy to suffer at seemingly some arbitrary level. Your motivation seems to be somewhat primitive, which i can respect...but his punishment is not necessarily "stupid" just because it is not violent or emotional enough, correct?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Jersey Girl »

DoubtingThomas wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/us/nikolas-cruz-death-penalty.html

Give Nikolas Cruz the death penalty only if he has some serious psychiatric disorder. Why? Because I see the death penalty as an act of mercy.


Why the dp if he has some serious psych disorder? Do you think that mentally ill persons are incapable of having a meaningful life even if that life takes place behind bars?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Why the dp if he has some serious psych disorder?


Because life in prison isn't really life. If he has some serious psych disorder would you want him to rot in prison?

As Xenophon said, "If our prison system was better, offered more mental health services". So why keep him alive? He won't get mental health treatment in prison. The opposite is the reality.

Xenophon wrote:Again, I feel like I need to state that I am opposed to the death penalty and our for-profit prison state in general. I just feel like there are WAY better arguments against it than which punishment is arbitrarily "more severe".


Understood. I will have to keep doing research.
_Morley
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Morley »

Markk wrote:I worked with a middle eastern guy years ago, and I asked him how they would handle a convicted murderer...I think is was during the OJ trial or similar...he said “Mark (roll the R) a bullet it is 25 cents.”


You've got to be kidding me, Markk. You say "a middle eastern guy" like that points to some common culture or set of attitudes. Was he Turkish, a Kurd, perhaps an Ashkenazi Jew, or a Saudi, maybe an Albanian Christian, or a Cypriot Greek, a Parsi from Iran, Jordanian, Lebanese, or God knows what. Ajax, frikin' Ajax, is showing more nuance and cultural awareness than you are.
_Morley
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Morley »

No one introduces themselves as being from 'the Middle East.' It would be akin to saying, 'Hi, I'm Bob. I'm from the Western Hemisphere.'
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Jersey Girl »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Why the dp if he has some serious psych disorder?


Because life in prison isn't really life. If he has some serious psych disorder would you want him to rot in prison?


As Xenophon said, "If our prison system was better, offered more mental health services". So why keep him alive? He won't get mental health treatment in prison. The opposite is the reality. [/quote]

I asked you 2 questions. Here they are again. I'll number them in list form this time so you can't miss them.


1) Why the dp if he has some serious psych disorder?

2) Do you think that mentally ill persons are incapable of having a meaningful life even if that life takes place behind bars?


For some reason, and I don't know why, you assume that life in prison is without meaning and constitutes "rotting".

Let me just state out the outset here that people who view the mentally ill as "things" and presume to dictate the circumstances of their life course from afar, and their possible incarceration by pronouncing that they should be euthanized, make me damned sick.

Now that that is out of the way, let me continue.

Not all prison systems are the same. There are good doctors in crummy systems, and crummy doctors in quality systems. That and the fact that the very nature of mentall illness completely escapes you, is the reason why you should engage in more research before spouting off as you have.

I could take the prison system in my area as an example. It interfaces directly with a psych hospital when necessary. One of my family members was a psych nurse in that hospital. Prisoners are eval'd and treated and sent back to prison. Does the mental health care they receive always involve quality services? No. You'll have to keep reading as I make comparisons.

In that prison system, inmates are able to take online classes, earn degrees, improve fitness/health/well being, and participate in programs such as their canine rescue and training programs. The prison dog program allows prisoners to build new skills, bond and attach to animals, develop a sense of responsibility and pride, and contribute to the community through pet adoption.

With regard to whether or not prisoners receive viable and quality mental health services, have any experience with the status of "civilian" mental health care? And if so, do you think it is far superior to that which is available to the inmate population?

1. Three days or so ago, I viewed a Facebook post by a friend. I saw it as a cry for help. I waited 10 minutes, decided that the issue couldn't wait so I jumped in and dragged it off into messages. My friend described various symptoms and in the middle of her description mentioned that her doctor had reduced her medication with a goal of eliminating it entirely. The doctor ("civilian", not prison doctor) instructed her to cut her dose of Zoloft IN HALF and in three days time, she was experiencing withdrawal symptoms which I recognized as such. FYI: You do not discontinue Zoloft by cutting the dose in half. It's imperative that you titrate slowly over a period of weeks and even then there are potential withdrawal symptoms. My point is that the instructions of a civilian doctor thrust a fully functional adult (a single parent no less) into a state of total dysfunction.

2. Just over a year ago, a relative who was first responder to his SO's death, was suffering from PTSD and didn't know what was happening to him. I identified the symptoms as PTSD (because unfortunately I know someting about trauma) and encouraged him long distance to seek mental health care. Guess how long it took him to access services? Three months. Those three months were spent riding out panic attacks, night mares, and struggling with ideation of suicide with me over the phone. When he arrived for his first appointment, the so-called professional therapist told him that he needed to practice relaxation techniques and that was her ONLY advice to him. He called me crying on the sidewalk outside the office, because she'd made him feel like a POS. I encouraged him to get back on the horse and try again. Another month passed before his next appointment and thankfully, he connected with a good therapist who read the situation for what it was, set him up for medications and after his first roller coaster experiences with meds, he is slowy recovering from complicated grief and trauma.

I could rattle of a list of perhaps 10 or more similar events that I am aware of my own experience or in my circle of people, where people went in and out of dysfunctional states due to the instructions of mental health care professionals. Oh, let's talk about the therapist who specialized in PTSD and who refused to treat one in my circle of people who made a suicide attempt and then you tell me, what is the purpose of specializing in PTSD when one refuses to treat the most serious behavior outcome associated with PTSD. No really, make sense of that.

I don't know why you think that mental health care in the civiliain community might be far superior to that of the prison system, or why you think a person should be euthanized on account of incarceration, but you are making judgement calls about people, illnesses, systems and services with which you are obviously unfamiiar.

As I implied earlier. There are crummy doctors in good facilities, and good doctors in crummy facilities. Who are you to suggest euthanisia for human beings who are in need of treatment when the potential for both positive and negative outcomes is there had when you have no way of predicting what those outcomes might be?

If someone you know, love or care about develops mental illness and the trajectory of their lives is demolished, would you suggest euthanasia for them? Crumble them up like a piece of paper, throw them in the trash when the solution could come with the next phone inquiry?

Or would you pull on your end as best as you could to get them the help they require? How about instead of blathering about discarding and euthanizing inmates, you learn something about the issue and turn yourself into an outspoken advocate for those folks?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Jersey Girl »

p.s. DT people who live with mental illness aren't "things" to be discarded no matter the current circumstances of their lives. They are warriors who exercise more courage than you or I could ever hope to have.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Prison dog program. Other states have this, too.

https://www.coloradoci.com/serviceprovi ... outDogsDiv
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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