"A lot of Christians love imagining looking down on their now damned former friends and family."
Really Gunnar? Really?
That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. - some Christian saint, or something.
Anyway, I've heard far more times I can count Christians expressing an "I told you so" fantasy wherein they are in heaven looking gladly down on those who disagreed with them in hell in the afterlife. Heck, I've heard this gleefully imagined when discussing The Rich Man and Lazarus more times than I can count, and that's a narrow version of it. This revenge fantasy is obviously very common, but that's not the same as hoping people will be damned in hell, which is what I guess you may have interpreted the quote as. It's more of a self-satisfied fantasizing about how sorry their enemies will be.
EAllusion wrote:Anyway, I've heard far more times I can count Christians expressing an "I told you so" fantasy wherein they are in heaven looking gladly down on those who disagreed with them in hell in the afterlife.
For a very long time, I believed the number one reason people were religious was as a balm for their personal feeling of impotence to reign down justice on those they think deserve it.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
I try not to judge on who I think is going to hell and who isn't. I don't know what's in another person's heart or where they are with God. Even if they seem like terrible people, it's possible they were once far worse and God has been at work on them.
But when I have encountered people whom I'm sure are hellbound, I've usually not felt anything but sadness.
(I say "usually" because there's probably some exceptions there for child murderers, etc.)
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13
Reading Four Views of Hell it seems many Christians cannot agree what hell is. Burn forever without burning up or just a miserable place, a purgatory or as Clark Pinnock argues annihilation. Did the slaves on the way to America who died and were thrown overboard, are they in hell? Is Gandi in Hell? Just makes God look like a sadist.
Hilary Clinton " I won the places that represent two-thirds of America's GDP.I won in places are optimistic diverse, dynamic, moving forward"
Hawkeye wrote:I cannot believe, in good conscience, that hell even exists.
I cannot believe, with reasonable logic, that hell exists.
Anyone who actually believes that we are going to be frozen in a state of bliss or a state of hellfire for eternity over what we did in our brief time on earth either hasn't really thought it through or is insane.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
subgenius wrote:how many ecstatic evangelical Christians hold this "end times" belief? and then, to what do you attribute their seemingly powerful influence on American policy ? and finally, how is this influence manifest?
it should be nice to read actual evidence and facts, but hyperbole, conjecture, and hair-fire proclamations of faith are also welcome.
Much of the support comes from fundamentalist Christians, who believe in biblical prophecies that Jews will inherit the land of Israel. Ardent followers also embrace literal interpretations of the Bible that a thriving state of Israel is a prerequisite for an apocalyptic end-time and the return of Jesus to earth. Often led by the charismatic leaders of megachurches, these grass-roots groups across the U.S. raise millions of dollars each year.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
MsJack wrote: (I say "usually" because there's probably some exceptions there for child murderers, etc.)
Because it can be hard to wrap one's head around big numbers, it can be hard to grasp just how awful it is for anyone to suffer forever - graham's number x infinity - for literally anything. No matter how heinous the offense, I cannot conceive of a defensible system of justice that would allow for an infinite punishment of a finite offense. Within the world-view of someone who thinks this is a just cause of a system God created for lack of faith, you're looking at something more immoral than the most immoral thing the most immoral person on Earth was able to do. Infinite suffering for lack of faith is far, far worse - infinitely so even - than merely murdering an innocent child.
aussieguy55 wrote:Reading Four Views of Hell it seems many Christians cannot agree what hell is. Burn forever without burning up or just a miserable place, a purgatory or as Clark Pinnock argues annihilation. Did the slaves on the way to America who died and were thrown overboard, are they in hell? Is Gandi in Hell? Just makes God look like a sadist.
Aussieguy, Speaking as a believer I do not find it surprising that people do not agree about hell. I know of no real information about it to clarify the picture. I strongly suspect annihilation for those for whom it is not purgatory.
I feel reasonably sure that slaves on the way to Amerika have a better chance of heaven than the slave traders. I know of no reason to think Gandi is in hell.
My view puts all sorts of people in heaven in celebration of the elimination of wars and division of this corrupt world. I do have difficulty in my mind with getting some people into this picture of heaven, thinking of obvious examples such as Hitler. I Agree with EAllusion even for him unending torture is absurd.
(I believe all salvation is through Jesus but he saves by his choice not just by people being in his church.)
EAllusion wrote:Because it can be hard to wrap one's head around big numbers, it can be hard to grasp just how awful it is for anyone to suffer forever - graham's number x infinity - for literally anything. No matter how heinous the offense, I cannot conceive of a defensible system of justice that would allow for an infinite punishment of a finite offense. Within the world-view of someone who thinks this is a just cause of a system God created for lack of faith, you're looking at something more immoral than the most immoral thing the most immoral person on Earth was able to do. Infinite suffering for lack of faith is far, far worse - infinitely so even - than merely murdering an innocent child.
Hell isn't a punishment God inflicts on people (or, at least, it isn't exclusively that), it's a choice people make to separate themselves from him.
Besides that, if there is no afterlife or resurrection, then murdering a child is an action that lasts for infinity.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13
