Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteria

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_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Ceeboo »

Kevin Graham wrote:Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference + Ceeboo = more dismissive hand waving


Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference + Kevin Graham = Another example that clearly explains how utterly blind someone can become when they allow broad intolerance to thrive in them - A display of radically based political prejudices that completely block their vision on every level.
_canpakes
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _canpakes »

Ceeboo wrote:Yeah, Trump's presser with Russian dictator Putin was terrible. In addition to looking like a buffoon (again), he undermined the credibility of American intelligence agencies. in my opinion, this was/is inexcusable for any sitting President and Americans, from all political parties, ought to be united in clear condemnation.

But..........

Ceeboo, it's my own opinion that the last word there can be problematic.

You go on to describe an arguably over-the-top comment and assert that this is contributing to the poisonous political climate in the country, but you want to do this by removing all of the context that precedes it.

It's not that the President "looked like a buffoon", which implies a sort of innocent and solitary transgression, but that his continual insistence in publicly undermining the people of the intelligence community is something that signals a greater threat to some than a simple moment of buffoonery.

The President uses his completely unique position of power and public commentary to insult and undermine whatever and whomever he takes issue with, even when the folks that are the target of his ire are lawfully committing to their own responsibilities. Specifically, here he does so against the people charged with keeping us secure from this country's enemies. He has been doing this since Day One as President. As example he has, as of late, resorted to fantasticly hyperbolic statements about how the Mueller investigation is the most biased, possibly illegal and tainted "witch hunt" in the history of the Nation and how he is the most persecuted President ever. At some point, it is assumed that random cable show commentators will make remarks that are about as hysterical as the President has, but you could see that coming when our own President is willing to toss anyone under the bus so violently in attempts to preserve his own position and image. This is the example he is setting. Every day.


To me, it's the political time that we are living in - very similar to members of the Trump administration and the tens of millions of American citizens who supported/voted for Trump being labeled as white supremacists, haters and even Nazis. Among other things, hysterically, wildly and irresponsibly attaching labels like Nazi to so many American citizens cheapens the Holocaust.

It's unreasonable, it's irrational and it's unbalanced hysteria.

Thoughts?

Back when we had the altercations in Charlottesville between white supremacists and their opponents, the President had an opportunity to unequivocally state his support for the idea that the Nazi idealism espoused by some would not, under any circumstances, be given the same respect as views on tolerance. Or that white supremacist voices did not represent American ideals, and that such demonstrations were worthy of defense. But Trump chose instead to equivocate on that issue out of a need to pander to his Base. He kneecapped respect for victims of the Holocaust long before your MSNBC reporter made the faulty comparison to Kristallnacht.
_Chap
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Chap »

Themis wrote:Why would Trump keep saying he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community Ceeboo?


Ceeboo wrote:I have exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does. (Why would you ask me that?)


Themis wrote:Because that is what I do when analyzing people and their motivations. May not be that important with most people, but certainly someone who wants to be leader of their country it is extremely important to ask these questions.


Also, because making the attempt to picture what is going on in somebody else's head is a basic part of all normal processes of human interaction. The inability to do that is part of the problem that some autistic people have in dealing with non-autistic people, who expect them to do something seems to them normal, but which is to autists a skill they have to work at learning.

So the claim to have 'exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does' seems rather strange. I mean, 'anything'? Nothing at all? C'mon now, Ceeboo!

How about answering the question in this form:

"Suppose you were forced to bet $1000 on guessing why somebody in Trump's position might say that he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community. What hypothesis would you put your money on?"
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Chap
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Chap »

canpakes wrote:The President uses his completely unique position of power and public commentary to insult and undermine whatever and whomever he takes issue with, even when the folks that are the target of his ire are lawfully committing to their own responsibilities. Specifically, here he does so against the people charged with keeping us secure from this country's enemies. He has been doing this since Day One as President. As example he has, as of late, resorted to fantasticly hyperbolic statements about how the Mueller investigation is the most biased, possibly illegal and tainted "witch hunt" in the history of the Nation and how he is the most persecuted President ever. At some point, it is assumed that random cable show commentators will make remarks that are about as hysterical as the President has, but you could see that coming when our own President is willing to toss anyone under the bus so violently in attempts to preserve his own position and image. This is the example he is setting. Every day.


Yup. Do you disagree, Ceeboo?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Ceeboo »

Chap wrote:
So the claim to have 'exactly no idea why Trump does anything he does' seems rather strange. I mean, 'anything'? Nothing at all? C'mon now, Ceeboo!


I don't know why Trump does anything. Period. And to be completely honest, neither do you.
I don't know why he undermined American intelligence agencies (But I can offer my opinion that his undermining ought to be seen as unacceptable to the great majority of American citizens). I don't know why Trump tweets all the ridiculous things he does (But I can offer my opinion on the utterly stupid and uncivil things that he tweets - Like calling Don Lemon stupid or the disrespectful remarks he tweeted about Lebron James). I don't know why Trump extended such warm and kind comments to the dictator of Russia (But I can offer my opinion concerning how inappropriate I personally believe it was)

"Suppose you were forced to bet $1000 on guessing why somebody who in Trump's position might say that he believes Putin and not his own intelligence community. What hypothesis would you put your money on?"


Yeah - in my opinion, this is part (not all) of the problem. None of us know and to guess (these guesses are almost always based on political motivations as can be easily seen if you read the responses from those who are politically based on the left versus those who are politically based on the right and it's not just today with Trump. This can easily be seen over the last several decades - No matter who the President was at the time.

And, in my mind, there are countless possibilities concerning Trump's motivation/motivations behind this- As well as a laundry list of other things. The hypothesis that Putin has dirt on Trump or that Trump is Putin's money buddy are on that list but that list (again in my opinion) is much longer with a number of other possibilities.

Simply put, I don't know and I would suggest that you don't know either.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Hey Ceeboo, Trump just admitted on Twitter that his campaign is guilty of conspiracy against the United States, which is a crime.

That doesn't even register on your list of concerns, eh?

No. Your #1 concern this week is to mock MSNBC because some guy said the Russian cyber attacks were just as serious as a conventional military attack.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Ceeboo »

Chap wrote:
canpakes wrote:The President uses his completely unique position of power and public commentary to insult and undermine whatever and whomever he takes issue with, even when the folks that are the target of his ire are lawfully committing to their own responsibilities. Specifically, here he does so against the people charged with keeping us secure from this country's enemies. He has been doing this since Day One as President. As example he has, as of late, resorted to fantasticly hyperbolic statements about how the Mueller investigation is the most biased, possibly illegal and tainted "witch hunt" in the history of the Nation and how he is the most persecuted President ever. At some point, it is assumed that random cable show commentators will make remarks that are about as hysterical as the President has, but you could see that coming when our own President is willing to toss anyone under the bus so violently in attempts to preserve his own position and image. This is the example he is setting. Every day.


Yup. Do you disagree, Ceeboo?


For the most part, I agree with comments above.

Even though my OP wasn't/isn't about Trump's behavior (I think we have enough of those threads going already, no?) My OP was about comments made that I believe are hysterical and way over the top.
_Chap
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Chap »

Ceeboo wrote:I don't know why Trump does anything. Period. And to be completely honest, neither do you.
I don't know why he undermined American intelligence agencies (But I can offer my opinion that his undermining ought to be seen as unacceptable to the great majority of American citizens).


Why on earth should it be seen as unacceptable to American citizens - unless you believe that his assertion about Putin's innocence is incorrect? So can we take it you do believe that Putin is, on the whole, probably not innocent of seeking to interfere with US elections, which is what the US intelligence community asserts.

OK, Ceeboo?

So what do you think is the most likely reason, or reasons, for someone in the position of the President to make such an assertion as the one he made? Give us, ooh, maybe your top three candidates.

(Yup, I know that there are an infinite number of LOGICAL possibilities - including that Trump is a robot controlled by extra-terrestrials, or that he was making a joke. But we are asking you to do a probability judgement here, like we do in everyday life all the time.)

I can't see for the life of me why you are so extremely reluctant to form or express a view as to what Trump may have been up to.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Ceeboo »

Kevin Graham wrote:
No. Your #1 concern this week is to mock MSNBC

I wasn't mocking MSNBC - You would have easily been able to see that if you weren't so visually impaired.
because some guy said

It was a woman - You should read the thread before you wildly start attacking.
the Russian cyber attacks were just as serious as a conventional military attack.


You think the Holocaust and 911 are "conventional military attacks?"
God you're blind!
_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Ceeboo »

Chap wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:I don't know why Trump does anything. Period. And to be completely honest, neither do you.
I don't know why he undermined American intelligence agencies (But I can offer my opinion that his undermining ought to be seen as unacceptable to the great majority of American citizens).


Why on earth should it be seen as unacceptable to American citizens - unless you believe that his assertion about Putin's innocence is incorrect? So can we take it you do believe that Putin is, on the whole, probably not innocent of seeking to interfere with US elections, which is what the US intelligence community asserts.


I think it's crystal clear that Russia tried to interfere with the election - I think it's equally clear that the US intelligence community was and is accurate with the information they gathered that supports this interference.

OK, Ceeboo?

OK, Chap?


(Yup, I know that there are an infinite number of LOGICAL possibilities - including that Trump is a robot controlled by extra-terrestrials

I thought (maybe I was wrong?) that we were having a sincere exchange of ideas. Given all the replies I have given you up to this point, this comment makes not want to proceed much longer.

I can't see for the life of me why you are so extremely reluctant to form or express a view as to what Trump may have been up to.
[/quote]

"Extremely reluctant to form or express a view?' You must be kidding, no? I have expressed countless views in this thread thus far - beginning with the OP where I expressed, clearly, my personal views.

And while I understand that you mock a number of possibilities, it is my view that there are indeed a number of possibilities. Among these many possibilities (and at the top of my personal list) is Trump's enormous ego. The mere suggestion that his 2016 victory may be - or may be seen - as somehow ill-won is an extremely strong driving force for someone that possesses the vanity and narcissism that he exhibits. In my mind, it's the same with firing Comey. Simply put, this isn't about some nefarious plot, it's about Trump's ridiculous ego problem.
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