5 Reasons Why We Need Sweden's Democratic Socialism...

[_honorentheos]

Exactly. Its all marketing and branding on all sides.

[_Chap]

Sweden has successfully implemented universal government funded healthcare that results in a healthier population at a much lower cost.

Average life expectancy, years (2019)

Sweden: 82.7
USA: 78.9

Expenditure on health care per head per year (2016), USD

Sweden: 5488
USA: 9892

So with the Swedish universal government funded healthcare, you get to live nearly four years longer on average than in the US, and you get to pay about 45% less in health care costs.

What's not to like? And could it be that the absence of a huge health insurance industry sucking money out of the system and driving up prices charged by hospitals might have something to do with why things are better and cheaper in Sweden? Is that remotely possible?

[_EAllusion]

I think political labels have useful meaning, and I think the fact that they're under-determined doesn't undercut that.

[_EAllusion]

There's a popular meme in leftwing circles:



It's very easy to get sucked into this vortex of argument. One way to avoid it is to eschew political labels. I think the better way is to just have a more nuanced understanding of what they can and can't tell us about specific ideological positions.

[_honorentheos]

I think political labels have useful meaning, and I think the fact that they're under-determined doesn't undercut that.

I won't disagree but the majority of people aren't operating under informed or nuanced understandings of political labels. This thread being an example.

Hell, explaining to a poster here in the past using a capital "D" when spelling Democratic refered to the political party in the US and they should instead refer to little "D" democracy put them in a tail spin. I think that's about the average level of nuanced one can expect and should write towards.

[Guest]

I mean, the main guy being interviewed straight up shot down that term.

Of course he did, but this author wasn't randomly hand plucked out of a crowd. He was specifically targeted for his Right Wing views. He works for CATO for crying out loud, and he is a known defender of global capitalism. The second guy is a member of the Conservative think tank American Enterprise Institute. Anything good happening anywhere, they're likely to chalk it up to capitalism and downplay the significance of social programs. When he said Bernie wanted free healthcare and then the Swedish woman said nothing is free, this was clearly an attempt to show a contradiction. But that was disingenuous of him to do that and it showed his agenda, because Bernie knows nothing is really free, it is paid for by taxes just as the woman said.

The problem with various political identifications seems to be that they mean different things to different people.

This is certainly true, which is why I focus less on semantics and just get right down to the nitty gritty on what needs to be done.

These people making these videos want it both ways. They want to be able to claim Sweden is purely Capitalist and not Democratic Socialist, but at the same time they want claim any attempt to be like Sweden would be Socialism. It is hard to know who the intended audience was for this filmmaker.

[_Icarus]

Exactly. Its all marketing and branding on all sides.

Are you saying that Democratic Socialism is just a concept conjured up by those trying to brand and market? That's not how it was described to me in college. And who would be doing the branding/marketing, and why? Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to even do that since it has become counter productive. If anyone on the Left was really trying to brand or market their proposed policies they should have stuck with something like Market Democracy or Social Democracy. No one in their right mind would include the word "Socialism" unless it was already an established thing.

[_honorentheos]

Sweden has successfully implemented universal government funded healthcare that results in a healthier population at a much lower cost.

Average life expectancy, years (2019)

Sweden: 82.7
USA: 78.9

Expenditure on health care per head per year (2016), USD

Sweden: 5488
USA: 9892

So with the Swedish universal government funded healthcare, you get to live nearly four years longer on average than in the US, and you get to pay about 45% less in health care costs.

What's not to like? And could it be that the absence of a huge health insurance industry sucking money out of the system and driving up prices charged by hospitals might have something to do with why things are better and cheaper in Sweden? Is that remotely possible?

Our daughter is home for the weekend from college, and we were talking last night about her economics class. The professor was using the current downturn as a touch stone for reviewing past behaviors in the markets following similar events and what is useful to take from past experience in order to anticipate what likely responses will occur in the markets currently. As part of it, I brought up the view human beings tend to oversimplify in order to both mistakenly believe we understand why past events occurred as they did which in turn sets us up for failure when it comes to preparing for future Black swan events. Not to say there isn't much to learn from investigating in our reductionist way, but it should always be managed with extreme skepticism and caution.

I mention this because the above seems very much to be the sort of garbage thinking that isn't helpful in addressing the issues with the US healthcare system. Rather, it suggests the person making a haphazard comparison.

[_honorentheos]

Exactly. Its all marketing and branding on all sides.

Are you saying that Democratic Socialism is just a concept conjured up by those trying to brand and market? That's not how it was described to me in college. And who would be doing the branding/marketing, and why? Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to even do that since it has become counter productive. If anyone on the Left was really trying to brand or market their proposed policies they should have stuck with something like Market Democracy or Social Democracy. No one in their right mind would include the word "Socialism" unless it was already an established thing.

The correct response would have been to explain what it means in a way that disproves the argument rather than just assert your brand loyalty.

[_Icarus]

The correct response would have been to explain what it means in a way that disproves the argument rather than just assert your brand loyalty.

What argument needs to be disproved? Democratic Socialism is a real thing. Really.