Trying to Understand

[Gadianton]

Schmo,

Question for you. How many right-wing friends have you had during the last four years, and how do they stack up against the picture you've painted of Trump supporters in this thread?

I have 2 over-the-top Trump supporter friends who are nearly like family, so long as I never say anything about politics I'm sure, but they are remote now. I have three (one near over-the-top) acquaintances/friends I see every day. A few of my family members are Trump supporters, but we don't talk about it. One sibling who I am exceptionally close to, I have no idea who he voted for because I'm that afraid that if it's Trump, even broaching the subject would possibly blackball me with his wife. A life-long friend I keep in regular contact with is an unhinged right-winger and voted for Trump, I'm sure, but he's never mentioned Trump in a conversation or political meme, or email. Oh, and my mom and dad, prior to their passing, also voted for Trump.

How they fit into the picture you've painted, that I broadly share, is interesting to say the least. There are no tight fits.

[Gunnar]

Schmo...I think you have a tendency to categorize people as a "they" for one reason or another. You do it with the Republicans and also believers, and right here you merged the two. Republicans and believers are not one in the same. Maybe you think they have fused their religious belief with the party? That may well be true.

I will cop to the fact that I am completely in the tank contributing to the division in this country. I see it in myself every day, and I don't like it about myself.

The problem is that I'm not sure how to think differently about the people who voted for Trump (which I suppose was the impetus for this thread). I'm not sure how to reach out to people who seem fundamentally opposed to letting facts dictate what we talk about. I can't relate to people who admire, or at least passively enable obvious incompetence and stupidity. The biggest thing I have trouble getting past is the people who actually believe him when he brags about the job he's done. How should we regard that kind of ignorance, that kind of awful judgment?

I hear Trump fans don't like condescension pointed their way, and yet they do nothing to dissuade it. They belligerently invite it. Just like Trump, they want us to accept their malfeasance and love them too, while asking us to take them seriously when they complain about everyone else's faults (especially when those faults are the things of which they are most guilty). It just doesn't work that way, so they'll never be satisfied.

I can't see it as anything else but trying to have an adult conversation with a toddler. It is condescending, because they live so low.

As for the religious stuff, I'm fine with you doing you, Jersey Girl. I do see believing in unsubstantiated claims as the gateway to believing conspiracy theories and nonsense about political leaders because of a weakening in the person's standard for belief. It's hard to separate one unsubstantiated belief from another just because of a holy book or two. Not every religious person goes off the deep end in this way, but enough to see it as a pattern with which we should take extreme caution. I started calling the Trump base a cult long before it was popular to do so, because the pattern is so obvious to me. Scientology and Mormonism have nothing over Trumpism in terms of believing outrageous nonsense.

I love this post by you. You put into words exactly how I feel about things myself, much more eloquently than I could have.

[Some Schmo]

Schmo,

Question for you. How many right-wing friends have you had during the last four years, and how do they stack up against the picture you've painted of Trump supporters in this thread?

I used to live in a very red county, so I had several right-wing acquaintances and friends. In Trump's first year, we talked about politics a lot, but what I found was that over time, nobody wanted to talk about it any more. Most of the people I know are college educated professionals, and it became something nobody wanted to speak of in fear of the potential professional implications. It's fair to say I work with a company that is highly sensitive about workplace abuse, so politics has kind of moved off the table as something safe to talk about at work. Like you mentioned, I think a lot of it has to do with the simple fact that people don't want to find out each other's politics because of what that might mean, and because they have to work together.

But yeah, I've had some disturbing conversations with conservative friends, their cognitive dissonance on full display. I remember one friend telling me Trump was the smarter choice (before he was elected) because he would be easier to impeach than Hillary. This is the kind of thinking I'm talking about.

I suppose I should also point out that when I call Trump voters idiots, I'm talking about the part of their brain that motivates them to vote Trump. I know guys who are brilliant at what they do, but also have the hole in their brain where good political sense belongs.

[Some Schmo]

A few of my family members are Trump supporters, but we don't talk about it.

I meant to talk about this, too.

I have three brothers. One I talk to regularly who is a self-professed liberal.

I have another who married a woman from Utah and has been living there ever since as an active Mormon. I haven't really spoken with him in years. We aren't angry with each other - we just drifted apart. If I had to guess, he's probably what you might call a reluctant Trump voter. He likely thinks Trump is a douche but better than a Democrat. I have to stress that I'm just guessing. The church was a wedge between us long before Trump was.

And my other brother is the one who concerns me most. We used to be very close, but have drifted apart in the last half-decade or so. It kind of started when we were chatting on the phone one day, and I mentioned evolution while making some other point. He shocked me by flipping out over me suggesting evolution was real. He is no longer a Mormon (I think he was the first in our family to leave the church, in fact) but he still considers himself a very religious Christian. I found myself amazed that he had held on to this childish notion of a god just popping animals into existence.

I admit, my motivation to talk to him dropped like a stone that day. It's heartbreaking to me that he would cling to such nonsense, and I honestly don't like thinking about him that way. The liberal brother I talk to regularly told me that they were chatting recently, and my brother told him, "I love Trump." He described it as having been spoken in reverent terms. I didn't sleep very well that night.

This is why I don't want to talk to him anymore except to wish him a happy birthday on Facebook. He's largely the kind of person I'm thinking about in this thread, led by emotion and antagonistic toward facts (although sometimes when I'm feeling annoyed by Trump, I am tempted to call him, just to blast a Trump supporter live. So far, thankfully, I've resisted doing that).

[canpakes]

I did just want to nab this out and stomp all over it, though because you know I gotta make a pitch for Team God every once in a while.

They have the same faith in that idea as Jesus returning some day.

Schmo...I think you have a tendency to categorize people as a "they" for one reason or another. You do it with the Republicans and also believers, and right here you merged the two. Republicans and believers are not one in the same. Maybe you think they have fused their religious belief with the party? That may well be true.

To Schmo’s point and strictly as anecdote, I have a family member posting on social media today about how the Rapture and End Times must be near, because all of the signs are now here, with Joe Biden possibly being the AntiChrist, of course.

Oh and I wanted to say just for the record, the other side of the house is really took a punch to the gut today.

Also to Schmo’s point - and because you have unique access - can you share the specific reasons why he feels this way? What are the things lost that puts him into that mood?

I understand if you prefer not to share those details. I’m asking because my own experience has been that it is extremely difficult to extract from Trump supporters what it is that they believe they’re supporting through him - which makes understanding, reconciliation or empathy just that much more difficult for someone who wants to try.

[Gadianton]

Among my group include some high intelligence levels and job competency, but I would say otherwise, education is minimal. In particular, none have backgrounds in any of these: Poli-sci, history, philosophy, economics, humanities. I think a strong command of any of these subjects would make avid Trump support difficult. Not to say they wouldn't vote for him because they vote republican.

The most dangerous to me, would be the first two I mentioned, but interestingly, neither have a religious background. They didn't know what it's like to be part of a cult/in-group and it's like, they can't get enough of that. although, neither to my knowledge believe in conspiracy theories. They like Trump's lying because to them, he's sticking it to the system. "Those liberals really freaked out over his last comment! har har har". They love the wall more than anything, because of how big and dumb it is -- it's a big middle finger to the out-group.

My mom didn't like Trump, but she voted for him because everyone knows Republican is the Lord's official party. She absolutely hated right-wing emails, and got mad at my dad for believing them. She would research them and show where they were wrong. My dad was a complete sucker, and he easily bought into the dumbest right-wing sound-bytes and the most reprehensible and racist right-wing ideology, along with racist interpretations of the Book of Mormon, but, he would be the first person you'd ever see on a personal level reaching out to help anybody no matter what race. Few people have ever brought a jihad-level Muslim to priesthood meeting. There are stories after story of his intense missionary work with people of all backgrounds and unequivocal acceptance of people in person.

Local friends here; none believe in any conspiracies, all of them believe liberals are wrecking the country. The most unhinged of these doesn't believe in the wall and thinks it's "divisive". I can't for the life of me get a coherent picture of what they like about Trump. The story changes frequently. They're Christian conservatives and so they support Trump, and most of the justification is ad-hoc. You get a blank stare when talking about Trump's anti-science posture, as all live in fear of Covid and wear masks more than any liberal I know.

Finally, the life-long friend is an avid conspiracy theorist, believes in stuff way more dumb than QAnon, though he probably believes in that too, is anti-mask, sends racist memes that he's too tone deaf to understand are racist. He's a survivalist in spirit, and stocks up for the end times. He's really friendly though and would never physically hurt a fly. On paper, he has the closest fit to a post-truth Trump supporter, but he's definitely not part of the Trump personality cult, and my guess is he's dead last in support of Trump on this list, excepting my mom.

A lot of it just doesn't add up for people I know in person.

[Some Schmo]

Gad, what you're describing sounds very familiar. Like EA, I expect self-described Trump fans to become extinct fairly quickly. It's not like most Republicans relish his behavior. I think most of them are in denial about it in some way. Most of them jump straight to "judges" when you bring up Trump.

I just have to say that it's always struck me as strange the kinds of people I know who are strongly Republican are some of the most generous people you'll ever meet. It's represents such a disconnect to me. The GOP does not do what these people really want. I think I rail more against the GOP than the LDS church because its offense seems so much more personal to me. Why can't this country have a sane conservative party? The closest we got is the Democratic Party.

I suspect a lot of the GOP base believe individual people and churches should help each other, but not the government. More sophisticated people will talk state governments over federal. I've heard those ideas a lot. I understand the sentiments, but they aren't accounting for the fact that certain things need to be done on a national level. They only seem to grasp that when it comes to the military. At least, the military is the only national program they think we should all pay for.

I blame right wing media and GOP politicians more than anyone, but I'm annoyed by people who seem willing to be suckered.

[Jersey Girl]

All the talk on the coverage today of Biden becoming President Elect is on how it will be his first job to bring the country together.

The only way that can happen is if both sides understand from where the other is coming. I'm sitting here thinking about how I find myself completely sucked into the "us vs them" paradigm because I'm not sure how to deal with people who live in a fantasyland untethered by facts. I don't think it's a stretch to believe the vast majority of Trump supporters thought they were doing the right thing voting for Trump. The real question is, what on earth could have led them to believe it was the right thing? Did they never once consider how they would feel if a Democrat, especially Obama, acted like Trump, was this incompetent? I'm trying to fathom how ignorant one would need to be to feel like Biden is a bigger threat to America than Trump is.

DJT is a flaming narc. Psychologists will be writing about him for decades because he is an easily observable stand out.

Some traits...

grandiose thinking
superficial charm

or in his case...charisma.

When he did the last town hall, one woman stepped up and complimented him on his smile, saying he was so handsome when he smiled and darn, if he didn't light it up and prove her right. I can say without question, he cuts a handsome figure in an overcoat and leather gloves. He looks the part.

But it's all window dressing.

The charm, the handsome figure, the smile, it's all covering up someone who is torn apart by his own insecurities that were created in him in early childhood. And you folks probably think my profession is just a bunch of children with paint on their hands. It is not. It's important work.

When Trump spoke to the masses, he spoke their language. He spoke to those who felt forgotten and they responded to it. Their mistake was in thinking that he was like them or that he understood them. Though, he DID understand them to a certain degree, his ability to speak their language is a product of his narcissistic personality disorder. It's called mirroring.

Narcs are good at mirroring. It's part of the mask they wear when they present themselves to others by imitating them. That's how they mooch their way into relationships. In Trump's case, he created a relationship with the folks who didn't know he was simply imitating them.

I dunno about anyone else but when someone is high on the charisma scale, I tend to put the brakes on. They have a way of taking you for a ride then taking you under with them. You can lose yourself in a charismatic person. I think a lot of folks lost themselves in Trump. Not because he was a con, you can call it a con but what he did was a narc playing his role.

I don't think that he can even begin to comprehend how much he HURT people. Because the only hurt he really understands is his own and when he experiences narcissistic injury (that'd be right now on a grand scale so watch out...he'll either act out like a third grader or try to burn the house down) he attacks outward in order to avoid the inward powerlessness he feels. He instantly lashes out because that helps him to regain his sense of power and control.

I'm spit balling here, but this is how I understand Trump and his supporters. You're free to discard anything I have said here. But we all probably know at least one of his supporters if not more. We all probably, at some point, wondered how on earth that person or persons could go so deep in the tank for him. I think it's on account of every trait I listed above. It's easy to be fooled by a narcissist. I'd venture a guess that we all have had that experience but not on a widespread national level.

Biden isn't charismatic. He's not charming. He's kind of boring but comforting at the same time. I see him as the actual American Dream in a certain way. A kid who grew up middle class poor with a family that loved him and provided him with good teachings. The kind of teachings that make the kid step up to the plate and take their best swing because they think they have a chance at hitting the ball. Because their parents made him believe he had just as good a chance as the other kid did. But they didn't forget to teach him that he was part of a team.

Trump didn't have that. Trump was manipulated early on by his father (who was probably also manipulated by his father) and so he learned to manipulate HIMSELF and others in response. I need to take a course now in aberrant psychology because I'm sure that Trump will be right there though I do think I already understand most of how he developed into the guy he is today. In Trump's family the top of the line family value was accumulating wealth. Kindness and compassion were traits of the weak. Getting over on people and being a "killer" was a family value as well.

He really is a mangled person.

Biden has accumulated wealth. It's just a different kind of wealth. It's not a gold plated bag of money. It's found in his relationships and interactions with others. He has earned respect and trust. But again, his life and Trump's life set off on a different trajectory early on. I bet if Biden ended up working on cars or pumping gas, people would still say the same things about him. Where if Trump became a mechanic, he would have been disowned by his entire family and left to go it alone in life. Biden's character was nurtured from childhood. Trump's character was dismantled from childhood along with his personality. He adapted. He changed. He morphed into something he should have never been. He morphed into a "thing".

It really pisses me off. Both of those kids had a shot. Trump's shot was stomped on and his true potential snuffed out by his own father. Trump is now suffering in agony because he has no healthy coping mechanisms. He's going to try to make US suffer. To what degree probably has a lot to do with how much stamina he has and how long he can sustain his efforts.

I don't get it. I honestly want to understand. I have a hazy idea that it's mostly tribalism, something I've never really been able to relate to, given that I've always felt like an outsider and completely comfortable being alone. I suspect that my experience growing up in a cultish setting likely contributed to a revulsion toward groupthink.

Are you talking about Mormon life here? It's okay if you don't want to say. But yes, if you have experience with cultish settings of any kind, you are probably able to relate to Trump's supporters. JSJr. was probably a narc, too, with the same kind of superficial charm and charisma as Trump has. Able to draw attention, able to mirror people, able to determine what people want and work at offering it to them.

But really, the biggest problem we have healing the country is that a good portion don't want to be healed. The fact that the rightwingnut media ecosystem exists (and is moderately popular) is proof of that. They aren't willing to stop listening to divisive rhetoric. They are so needy for conflict, they make up problems that don't exist. They fear ghosts. The Democrats have been coming for their guns for decades now. They have the same faith in that idea as Jesus returning some day. Despite the due dates, their fears still haven't materialized, but they go on fearing anyway, because that's the only way they know how to live.

How can we resolve differences when the conflict is over what's real?

I think...we have to resolve our own inner conflicts first. Like you are doing right here trying to work out how to think about Trump's base of supporters. I think if we can find a way to relate, then that's how we understand them. God, I do this like I'm on automatic all the time. It just takes empathy, the ability to take on the perspective of another--that is exactly what you are doing in this OP and other posts you've made.

I don't have all the answers, I can only share how I think about people and things. That's all I'm doing. Not giving solid answers as if they were gospel.

When we resolve our own inner life, I think that makes us more able to interact with people in positive and empathetic ways. I honest to God (that's not a sermon!) believe that change happens one relationship at a time. The way to bring peace is by being peaceful. The way to encourage kindness is by being kind. And so on and so forth.

Ghandi. Ghandi! Be the change that you want to see in the world.

Schmo, that stuff is the rippling effect I believe I have seen my whole entire life. Politician's don't heal the nation. WE heal ourselves and bring healing to others.

That said, another "truth" thing I subscribe to is that the leadership sets the tone in any organization or group. The standard comes from the top down. When the leadership is lacking or not proactive (it's exactly like Laissez-faire parenting or in this case, governing...it's the same thing) where chaos tends to break out (Lord of the flies!) until the group forms subgroups that appoint their own leaders. It's the same kind of parenting that confuses the heck out of children who try to find their boundaries via trial and error alone. It's important to note that in groups, children will create their own form of self government. We do it naturally as human beings. But when we have no solid foundation to work from, they get lost. Adults get lost.

That is where Biden comes in.

Biden is already setting the tone. It's a tone of unity. I reckon, and I could be wrong, that after all the shouting and kicking is done, things will settle down particularly when Biden gets his hands on this pandemic. When people start to get what they need in terms of reassurance that their health chances are better, their economic chances are better, there is light at the end of their miserable tunnel.

When people's needs are met, THAT'S when we will see less conflict and experience real positive change.

Trump spoke to a ton of people who felt forgotten or ignored. He appealed to meeting their needs, and he failed miserably when he had a chance to respond to this godforsaken pandemic. The pandemic is the ONE thing that has affected every single person in this country to one degree or another. The impact is universal. You can say it's universal on a global scale as well.

Like Biden said, Trump said he didn't want people to panic so he covered up. The people wouldn't have choked. HE choked. Biden won't choke on this. He's already appointing his task force, he's had his science-based plan in place for several months already. He's got the ability to reach across the aisle and get some damn money into the hands of struggling citizens who got beat out of their jobs.

Biden will deal with that first thing and once he gets that going, he'll move on to trying to deal with all the other crap that needs fixing. You can't remodel a house with out a healthy crew.

I think I am rambling too much here, plus someone is supposed to be cooking lasagna right now. I best get on it! I might take you guys into the kitchen though...

p.s. I told you I wanted to wait to sit and think about your words. Hopefully I made good on my claim. Or not!

[Dr. Shades]

Some Schmo:

Do you not have a Facebook account? If so, do you not have any friend there who supports Donald Trump? If so, do none of them post things in his favor, even if it's just a meme? If so, have you not had opportunities aplenty to read their perspectives for yourself?

In my case, among my Facebook friends I have about a 33% x3 split between Trump supporters, Trump detractors, and people who don't post about him at all. So, I get to read all the reasons why people hate him and, simultaneously, all the reasons why people love him.

After I read your opening post, I went back to Facebook and looked up the friend who most recently posted something pro-Trump that was more than a paragraph or two. Sure, it was probably copied-and-pasted, but he or she wouldn't have done it if he or she didn't agree, right? So, since you want to understand where they come from, here's a representative sample:

Let me be clear, I am not a Biden fan at all. He is corrupt, a liar, suffering from dementia and in my opinion a pedophile. He has done nothing to improve anything in 47/48 years in politics.

I truly believe Biden is just the stepping stone for Kamala Harris to take over the White House. Nancy Pelosi is already trying to put a 25th amendment in place to remove an unfit president. I don’t believe that has a thing to do with Trump having Covid. I think that’s to remove Biden if elected for dementia and Harris to take over.

This is my opinion so don’t bother to bash it, I haven’t bashed yours.

The clown in the White House just brokered two Middle East Peace Accords, something that 71 years of political intervention and endless war failed to produce.

The buffoon in the White House is the first president that has not engaged us in a foreign war since Eisenhower.

The clown in the White House has had the greatest impact on the economy, bringing jobs, and lowering unemployment to the Black and Latino population of ANY other president. Ever.

The buffoon in the White House has exposed the deep, widespread, and long-standing corruption in the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, and the Republican and Democratic parties.

The buffoon in the White House turned NATO around and had them start paying their dues.

The clown in the White House neutralized the North Koreans, stopped them from developing a further nuclear capability, sending missiles toward Japan, and threatening the West Coast of the US.

The clown in the White House turned our relationship with the Chinese around, brought hundreds of business back to the US, and revived the economy. Hello!!!!!!!

The clown in the White House has accomplished the appointing of three Supreme Court Justices and close to 300 Federal Judges.

This same clown in the White House lowered your taxes, increased the standard deduction on your IRS return from $12,500 for Married Filing Joint to $24,400 and caused your stock market to move to record levels over 100 times, positively impacting the retirements of tens of millions of citizens.

The clown in the White House rebuilt our military which the Obama administration had crippled and had fired 214 key generals and admirals in his first year of office.

This clown in the White House uncovered widespread pedophilia in the government and in Hollywood, and is exposing world wide sex trafficking of minors and bringing children home to their families.

The clown in the White House works for free and has lost well over 2 billion dollars of his own money in serving - and done all of this and much more in the face of relentless undermining and opposition from people who are threatened because they know they are going to be exposed as the criminals that they are if he is re-elected.

I got it, you don't like him. Many of you utterly hate and despise him. How special of you. He is serving you and ALL the American people. What are you doing besides calling him names and laughing about him catching the China virus ?????

And please educate me again as to what Biden has accomplished for America in his 47 years in office?

I’ll take a ‘clown’ any day versus a fork tongued, smooth talking hypocritical corrupt liar. Please let it be known that I want a strong leader who isn’t afraid to kick some ass when needed. I don’t need a fatherly figure - I already have one. I don’t need a liar - that's what Hollywood and CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS and the New York Times are for.

I don’t need someone to help me, but I also don’t want an obstacle or a demented, senile washed-up Swamp Monster.

God bless Donald Trump - the most unappreciated President in history.

So, feel free to disagree with any or all of those points. But the, uh, point in me copying-and-pasting that is so you can see what goes on in the mind of a Trump supporter. Right or wrong, that's what they believe. And guess what? They think you are wrong on every point about which you disagree with them. So who's right?

Jersey Girl:

Please keep in mind that to most if not all the rest of us, a "narc" is an undercover police officer or someone working as a confidential informant who gathers evidence in order to bust someone, most often someone involved in the drug trade.

[Some Schmo]

Awesome, thoughtful post, Jersey Girl. I really appreciate it.