The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

[_MeDotOrg]

I think the most physically talented player in the history of the NBA was Wilt Chamberlain.

Standing at 7’1” you wouldn’t think someone of that size had a vertical jump of 48 inches.

It isn’t just his jumping prowess that was great he was an exceptional all-around athlete running the 100 yard dash in 10.9 seconds, doing a triple jump of over 50 feet, throwing a shot put over 56 feet and winning the high jump 3 consecutive years in the Big Eight conference in the NCAAs.

Michael Jordan's vertical leap was 46 inches, but he wasn't 7'1". Wilt's vertical leap was 2 inches higher than any other player in the history of the NBA.

His record average of 50 points a game in '61-'62 is one of the awe-inspiring efforts in sports. Think of any NBA player in history scoring forty points in a night knowing that they need to score sixty points the next night to maintain their scoring average.

Wilt's career began at a time when he could totally dominate a slower and smaller league. It made for incredibly gaudy stats that will probably never be broken, but I think it ultimately made Wilt a poorer player. If there was one area where I think Chamberlain lags, it was bringing his competitive fire every night. He wasn't like Bill Russel, Michael Jordan or Larry Bird. (Kevin McHale tells my favorite Larry Bird story.)

I think if Wilt had entered the league 10 years later his stats may not have been as awesome, but the level of competition would have made him a better player.

[_EAllusion]

Wilt probably didn't have a vert of 48". That number derives from claims he made about himself. That would put his head consistently the above rim on jumps. That did not happen. Based on footage of gameplay, it probably was closer to 40" at the high end.

For a person at his height, this is still insane.

[_EAllusion]

.

His record average of 50 points a game in '61-'62 is one of the awe-inspiring efforts in sports. Think of any NBA player in history scoring forty points in a night knowing that they need to score sixty points the next night to maintain their scoring average.

If you adjust for pace, Michael Jordan's peak offensive seasons are more impressive. One way of doing this is to calculate how many points a player scored against a baseline of 100 possessions per game - points per 100 possessions. Jordan's pace adjusted ppg numbers are better. I think Jordan's best season is something like 46. My back of the napkin calculation for this season of Wilt's is 38.

[_EAllusion]

If you are getting into the nitty gritty of it, my team is also a better free throw shooting team. You almost have to pretend that coaches wouldn't play hack Rodman and Shaq, though they totally would. Team EA is hiring coach Pop, and he gets it.

At first, I thought Markk's "what does an old men at the Y team need" approach to team-construction would appreciate this fundamental aspect of the game. Then I realized with all his calling people pussies, he probably thinks calling fouls is for losers.

For his “do you even rebound , bro?” argument, my starting 5 has a better rebounder at 4 of 5 positions. That he has better rebounding at the 1 probably is not a big deal even on his own terms. But he does have Rodman on the bench, so I guess congrats are in order.

[_EAllusion]

I was looking for some articles that spell out how Curry affects defenses. There's a bunch, but I wanted video examples to illustrate the points. There's fewer of those than I would've liked. Here's a decent example:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/142 ... ching-ball

I found an article that uses SportVU data to mathematically break down how Curry disrupts the geometry of the game. I expect Markk to dismiss that by shouting NEERRDDSS!, but the short of it is that he expands the square footage of the court the defense needs to cover by about 25% (!!!) compared to league average, which naturally leads to players having to run longer straight lines to catch up to the ball, which naturally tests their ability to accomplish that.

The easiest way to exploit that is to run some screens from about 35 feet out from the basket, which is nearly an automatic virtual four on three for the roll person if Curry's range is respected. If Curry's range isn't respected, it turns out he buries 3's from that far out if his man sags around 50% of the time. That's 1.5 points per possession, which for the Warrior's pace would be around 156 points a game. So the smart plan is to respect his range and live with a possible virtual 4 on 3 again and again. This is what happens in live games.

Only Curry isn't running that with players like Jordan. I ran a simulation of that, and this is the result I got:

[_honorentheos]

I mentioned earlier in the thread I stopped following the NBA closely in the late 90s and only casually pay attention to who the star players are, playoff match ups, and how the Sun's are doing in case it comes up in work conversations. MeDots op interested me, though, so I spent a little time last week checking out stats and Best Of articles on current players to get a sense of how they compare to my memories of players from when basketball was a core part of my friend groups identity. One stat on Curry that blew me away was his teammates were 8% more effective in their offensive stats when he was on the court v. on the bench. That's a crazy number for the NBA. To then apply that to Jordan, James, Jabbar and Garnett? If they could put that in a pill it would be a banned substance.

[_Markk]

The only argument I can see for leaving Jordan off an all-time team is if your roster was almost entirely comprised of elite shooters. Steph Curry, Ray Allen, Larry Bird, etc. I can see trying to win with eFG% from overwhelming 3 point talent. Maaayyyybe you leave Jordan off your oops all the threes mathball team.

The second you allow a perimeter player who does not fit this mold on your team and it isn’t Jordan, you got too cute. Congrats, you played yourself.

Jordan off a team is that he needs the ball so much, it showed early in his career when he shot them out of contention. There are certainly teams I can put together with Jordan...and they also would have great role players doing the dirty work so he can be effective. He is arguably the greatest player ever, so you want, because he needs, the ball.


You talked about magic and Lebron being ball dominate...that is nothing compared to Jordan.


It will be interesting next year with steph and Russell, and without A.I.. And a strong west coast.

[_EAllusion]

Jordan off a team is that he needs the ball so much, it showed early in his career when he shot them out of contention.

He put up the best offensive seasons ever in the time period you are referring to. Given the efficiency with which he was scoring, if anything, he shot too little. If it's working, it's working. It's not his fault he had to drag Bill Cartright along. The Bulls lost despite Jordan, not because of him.

The notion that Jordan was too much of a ball hog and cost his team comes games comes from the mentality of "Durr. If your team doesn't win it's your fault..." that I'd like to think we've moved past.

There are certainly teams I can put together with Jordan...and they also would have great role players doing the dirty work so he can be effective.

In what universe are players like Michael Jordan not doing "dirty work?" On the one hand, the term means something like, "play defense, fight for boards, set screens, etc." But plenty of great players do that. So you equivocate it with, "Doing that while sucking at everything else."

You talked about magic and Lebron being ball dominate...that is nothing compared to Jordan.

More specifically, I talked about them being players who can be ball dominant, but also not. For the bulk of their careers they've been ball dominant because that's what their teams needed them to be. I did this in the context of talking about Jordan as my one true ball dominant player, which I allowed because of his sheer ability and the existence of a role for it next to the other players I'm putting on the floor.

[_Lemmie]

Can LeBron be on a team twice? He alley-ooped to himself in a real world game, so I figure it's a fair question.

Just kidding. Seriously though, not to interrupt the clone games, but the Nets have Durant and Kyrie Irving now! Plus Deandre Jordan, one of the best offensive rebounders ever. Pending recovery time for KD, that's going to be fun to watch.

[_EAllusion]

Can LeBron be on a team twice? He alley-ooped to himself in a real world game, so I figure it's a fair question.

Just kidding. Seriously though, not to interrupt the clone games, but the Nets have Durant and Kyrie Irving now! Plus Deandre Jordan, one of the best offensive rebounders ever. Pending recovery time for KD, that's going to be fun to watch.

Look at the history of players post-achilles injury. It's ugly. Outside of Wilkens, the outcomes range from, "noticeably worse" to "catastrophically worse." The effect is obvious enough that you can see it in significantly worse FG% for most examples. Wait and see what Durant is like after not playing for 18 months coming off a devastating injury at the age of 32.