I HEREBY STEP DOWN FOR NOW

[Res Ipsa]

"What good is a Libertarian utopia if no one wants to live there?"
--Dr. Shades, 11-26-2021

It only takes a couple of anarchic bomb-throwers waging a verbal guerilla war to create a Libertarian Dystopia. The deputies now have the power to restore order to Omelas and free the imprisoned child from its cell. Fiat voluntas Dei.

Omelas was a utopia that required the tortured child. Not what we're aiming for.

[Moksha]

Omelas was a utopia that required the tortured child. Not what we're aiming for.

It was a false premise, just something the Omeletians had been led to believe. Something found on golden plates that no one got to seriously inspect. Think about it, how could true happiness be incumbent on a tortured child? Jeesh, no wonder the compassionate walked away. You are left with a city of unquestioning tithe payers.

[Marcus]

Omelas was a utopia that required the tortured child. Not what we're aiming for.

It was a false premise, just something the Omeletians had been led to believe. Something found on golden plates that no one got to seriously inspect. Think about it, how could true happiness be incumbent on a tortured child? Jeesh, no wonder the compassionate walked away. You are left with a city of unquestioning tithe payers.

Surely the Omelettians would have golden eggs in their mythology, not golden plates.

[canpakes]

I see that MG is not infrequently frustrated and angry. I am sure it comes with the territory, in that he has chosen to endure in an environment where disregard for his cherished beliefs is the norm. It has to be tough, and I doubt I would deal with it the way he does...

I will never understand maintaining a belief if someone criticizing it makes you upset. People criticize what I believe all the time, but it doesn't bother me in the least, because I either have enough reason to believe it, or it leads me to question why I believe it in the first place. Getting upset is a blaring siren telling you something is wrong with your belief, not the criticism.

If it takes work to maintain a belief, the belief should be questioned.

That perspective makes sense.

I usually find myself more interested in why folks believe what they do, rather than the thing believed, itself.

I believe that a person should be very aware of the mechanics of their ‘why’. Poking at an argument to see what the response is helps to reveal that.

[Kishkumen]

I will never understand maintaining a belief if someone criticizing it makes you upset. People criticize what I believe all the time, but it doesn't bother me in the least, because I either have enough reason to believe it, or it leads me to question why I believe it in the first place. Getting upset is a blaring siren telling you something is wrong with your belief, not the criticism.

If it takes work to maintain a belief, the belief should be questioned.

Given the fact that nothing happens without the expenditure of energy, it is going to take work to maintain a belief in any case. You can be grateful that you are happy with where you are at, but that doesn't make you right, of course, as you well know. Nevertheless, I have no reason to doubt that what you say is true for you; I just don't believe that your sense of satisfaction and confidence in your own views has any bearing on the veracity of them.

[Res Ipsa]

It was a false premise, just something the Omeletians had been led to believe. Something found on golden plates that no one got to seriously inspect. Think about it, how could true happiness be incumbent on a tortured child? Jeesh, no wonder the compassionate walked away. You are left with a city of unquestioning tithe payers.

Surely the Omelettians would have golden eggs in their mythology, not golden plates.

I noted the juxtaposition of your post with Canpakes' avatar and completely cracked up!

[Some Schmo]

I believe that a person should be very aware of the mechanics of their ‘why’. Poking at an argument to see what the response is helps to reveal that.

Absolutely.

Given the fact that nothing happens without the expenditure of energy, it is going to take work to maintain a belief in any case.

I disagree. I've learned lots of things over the years that are effortless to believe. Gravity makes things fall. It takes no effort whatsoever to maintain that belief, for example.

Believing Joe Smith found ancient gold plates and translated them using a magic stone takes all kinds of work.

Those are two rather extreme examples to illustrate what I'm saying. Of course, there are beliefs in the middle where your evidence is incomplete, and for those, I have provisional suspicions, but nothing on which I'm willing to stake my emotions.

You can be grateful that you are happy with where you are at, but that doesn't make you right, of course, as you well know.

Of course. I could be all wrong about gravity. It's just that I'm as confident about that belief as I can be confident for a belief.

Nevertheless, I have no reason to doubt that what you say is true for you; I just don't believe that your sense of satisfaction and confidence in your own views has any bearing on the veracity of them.

I absolutely agree with that too. Going to any given fast and testimony meeting should make anyone agree with that.

To canpakes' point, it's not what you believe but why you believe it that matters. Evidence is a good reason to believe something. Desire is not.

[Kishkumen]

I disagree. I've learned lots of things over the years that are effortless to believe. Gravity makes things fall. It takes no effort whatsoever to maintain that belief, for example.

I think you are mistaking effort for the sense you are expending effort. It takes effort of some kind for you to exist. You may not be conscious of it, but it is nevertheless true. Moreover, it took lots of effort to come up with the concept of gravity, as you know, and so whether you consciously expend effort on it or not, there is all kinds of effort involved in the construct.

Believing Joe Smith found ancient gold plates and translated them using a magic stone takes all kinds of work.

Yes, it does for you now. It may not have been so in the past. So many things depend on perspective. Because you find it relatively more painless and effortless to believe something does not make your personal (dis)comfort an absolute state. The reality of things really does operate independently of your sense of them. Your sense of the world is your own rough guide that helps you navigate your existence, and this is the case all the way up to civilizational constructs, including science.

Of course. I could be all wrong about gravity. It's just that I'm as confident about that belief as I can be confident for a belief.

I would wager that you are undoubtedly wrong about gravity. We still have a very long way to go before we understand the world around us. Gravity is a construct that helps us grapple with things as we perceive them. On a more fundamental level, the idea of gravity may look like my dog's sense of when it is time to feed him.

To canpakes' point, it's not what you believe but why you believe it that matters. Evidence is a good reason to believe something. Desire is not.

True for everyone. Indeed, also pretty entertaining from the perspective of those who marvel at those who get worked up about the idea of the non-existence of Divinity. And yes, that should be read a number of ways.

[Some Schmo]

I think you are mistaking effort for the sense you are expending effort. It takes effort of some kind for you to exist. You may not be conscious of it, but it is nevertheless true.

You're using the word 'effort' in a sense that I don't mean it.

I'm using it in the premeditated sense of the word.

Believing Joe Smith found ancient gold plates and translated them using a magic stone takes all kinds of work.

Yes, it does for you now. It may not have been so in the past. So many things depend on perspective.

Certainly, when I was a kid. I grew up. It was easy to believe in Santa Claus and magic when I was a kid, too.

Because you find it relatively more painless and effortless to believe something does not make your personal (dis)comfort an absolute state. The reality of things really does operate independently of your sense of them. Your sense of the world is your own rough guide that helps you navigate your existence, and this is the case all the way up to civilizational constructs, including science.

I never said otherwise. There's nothing to argue here. I'm not sure why you said this.

The point of my post is questioning why people hold on to beliefs if they get upset upon having those beliefs challenged. I'm not surprised by people getting upset. I suspect it's because we understand at some level there's something wrong with the belief, primarily because any time I've gotten upset over a cherished notion, it was because I was wrong about something. Of course it's our own internal experience and perception of the world around us. Nobody escapes that.

I'm not questioning why people get upset, but why they don't use it as a signal to question their beliefs.

Of course. I could be all wrong about gravity. It's just that I'm as confident about that belief as I can be confident for a belief.

I would wager that you are undoubtedly wrong about gravity. We still have a very long way to go before we understand the world around us. Gravity is a construct that helps us grapple with things as we perceive them. On a more fundamental level, the idea of gravity may look like my dog's sense of when it is time to feed him.

It wouldn't surprise me, particularly. I follow scientific experts. The accuracy of anything comes down to the precision in which it's expressed, something else that evolves over time.

To canpakes' point, it's not what you believe but why you believe it that matters. Evidence is a good reason to believe something. Desire is not.

True for everyone. Indeed, also pretty entertaining from the perspective of those who marvel at those who get worked up about the idea of the non-existence of Divinity. And yes, that should be read a number of ways.

People do get worked up about the "non-existence of Divinity." They all have different reasons for it, but that's an accurate statement. Some get worked up at the suggestion there is nothing divine. I imagine many others get worked up because they have to contend with people believing in divinity, and everything that implies. Reasons will vary.

[Some Schmo]

Just to be clear...

I went back and read my original post, and realized I should have said, "People criticize what I believe all the time, but it doesn't bother me in the least any more, because I either have enough reason to believe it, or it leads me to question why I believe it in the first place."

The original quote does make it sound like I've never been upset by my beliefs being challenged, which is patently untrue.