Independence

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The link works. I’ve opened it on three different devices on three different networks.

[ceeboo]

The link works. I’ve opened it on three different devices on three different networks.

Perhaps it's on my end (work computer not allowing?)

Anyway, I'm not sure why I need to see your link - I have seen (more than a few times) the actual speech.

[Kishkumen]

REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville.

Trump: Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/ ... ipt-241662

You probably shouldn’t read the transcript, Ceeboo. The whole thing is even worse than taking this snippet out of that context. Days after a white nationalist group arranged this protest, walked down the streets with torches shouting, “You will not replace us!”, and had one of their own run his car into a crowd and kill a woman, Trump could not keep himself from repeatedly equivocating the actions of the ‘sides’ involved, focusing instead on strongly disparaging ‘the left’, and making weak excuses for other parties.

And maybe you process the choice differently, but even if I was a ‘fine person’ with a fondness for wanting to preserve the racist history of a 4-year Confederacy & wanting to speak out against removal of a statue dedicated to a man who fought against this country on slavery’s behalf, I probably wouldn’t choose to voice that opinion at a protest literally organized and attended by a white supremacist/neonazi group.

Trump’s rambling defense of the situation did nothing to help an already awful event. In fact, it exacerbated it, because he was afraid to take a clear stand, and was afraid to lose the voting support of some arguably not ‘very fine people’.

What do you make of the fact that Snopes.com disagrees?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/Trump ... ne-people/

We looked into these claims, and found that while Trump did say there were "very fine people on both sides," meaning both the protesters and the counterprotesters, he also condemned neo-Nazis and white nationalists outright and said he was specifically referring to those who were there only to participate in the statue protest.

Reporter: You said there was hatred and violence on both sides?

Trump: I do think there is blame — yes, I think there is blame on both sides. You look at, you look at both sides. I think there's blame on both sides, and I have no doubt about it, and you don't have any doubt about it either. And, and, and, and if you reported it accurately, you would say.

Reporter: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville.

Trump: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group — excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures as you did — you had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name. George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status, are we gonna take down — excuse me — are we gonna take down statues of George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him? Okay good. Are we gonna take down the statue? Cause he was a major slaveowner. Now are we gonna take down his statue? So you know what? It's fine. You're changing history, you're changing culture, and you had people — and I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people, but you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits, and with the helmets, and the baseball bats, you got a lot of bad people in the other group too.

Sometimes I see the nuances of this situation acknowledged, but then there will be a drift back to the mistaken view that there is no nuance to the situation. That is because, I think it is fair to say, Trump is a bigot, and he uses identity to divide people. But ceeboo is going to note that Trump is being misrepresented yet again in references to this event. And is he not, at least in this specific instance?

But you have to see the forest for the trees, in my view. Trump's policies and rhetoric very clearly reveal his bigotry and penchant for oppression.

[Schreech]

WARBLEGARBLE!! something, something, I dO mY oWN rEEsurch!, i wATch mAnY vIdeOs tHat cOnfirm WHaT i cHOose tO beLieVE!!, something,...lets try....cHriStiaN bIgoTry!!..that'll show him..., something, ...hmmm...(lost the plot), something, something, **activate insecurities** cHildLike GrammAr...aSSiGn hIGh leVel oF iNtelleCt...directly quoting my mango messiah = "liTeRaL" hOaXX!!, bOtH siDeS aRe tOXIC deVisIvE...dO yUr oWn rEEsuRCH!! BiDeN tOxIC bEcausE TOXIC!! As a cHriSTian...serial adultery, committing rape (and dozens of felonies), inciting an insurrection, and calling for a purge are A-OK...tRuMp2024!!! TDS!!!

[Some Schmo]

Sometimes I see the nuances of this situation acknowledged, but then there will be a drift back to the mistaken view that there is no nuance to the situation. That is because, I think it is fair to say, Trump is a bigot, and he uses identity to divide people. But ceeboo is going to note that Trump is being misrepresented yet again in references to this event. And is he not, at least in this specific instance?

But you have to see the forest for the trees, in my view. Trump's policies and rhetoric very clearly reveal his bigotry and penchant for oppression.

Trump talks like a 4th grader, in vague and inconsistent terms, leaving people to divine some meaning from it. He's an auditory Rorschach test. People can hear what he said and, given his history, assume he meant that neo-nazis are "very fine people." I have no doubt those neo-nazis took it that way, too. But then there are his supporters who don't want to believe he meant that so they look for a scintilla of evidence to support that idea.

He basically said it while trying to duck responsibility for saying it, and people like ceeboo get to feign righteous indignation to anyone who isn't willing to BS themselves about what happened that day like ceeboo has.

[Kishkumen]

Trump talks like a 4th grader, in vague and inconsistent terms, leaving people to divine some meaning from it. He's an auditory Rorschach test. People can hear what he said and, given his history, assume he meant that neo-nazis are "very fine people." I have no doubt those neo-nazis took it that way, too. But then there are his supporters who don't want to believe he meant that so they look for a scintilla of evidence to support that idea.

He basically said it while trying to duck responsibility for saying it, and people like ceeboo get to feign righteous indignation to anyone who isn't willing to BS themselves about what happened that day like ceeboo has.

Agreed. Trump is dumb. If he were a nice person in a low-stakes role in the world, that would not be such a bad thing. But he is more of a mean dumb person, unfortunately, and he has way too much money and power as it is. The level of reasoning he exhibits in the totality of the quotations shows this guy is unfit for public office. I mean, yeah, Thomas Jefferson did own slaves, but he did not fight a war with his fellow Americans for the specific purpose of preserving slavery. Trump is unfortunately incapable of reasoning that through because he really is a dummy.

Now, he is right that there were probably nice/good people on both sides of the issue of preserving or removing Confederate monuments. It may not make them right or even smart, but some of them may be nice. Now, a wise, capable leader will see that the intentions of the nice people defending the existence of a Confederate monument need to be overlooked once the white nationalists and Neo-Nazis capture the cause for their own agenda, and the latter must be unequivocally rejected as the primary if not sole message communicated in connection with the event.

And this is why we get teams of skilled grownups to do important jobs, not low-IQ bullies. Unfortunately, one-third of our citizens is very motivated to return this incompetent, low-IQ bully to the White House.

[Schreech]

Trump talks like a 4th grader, in vague and inconsistent terms, leaving people to divine some meaning from it. He's an auditory Rorschach test.

Ha! It would be amazing if he was doing it on purpose but the Adderall addiction has made swiss cheese of his brain.

The fact that a huge % of his followers are the same people who somehow find ways to twist the Bible into justifying their bigotry and right-wing identities, its not surprising that they can twist anything that dimwit says to fit their chosen narrative. HOAX!! is the new FAKE NEWS!!

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Here’s the relevant part of the speech:

Reporter: Senator McCain said that the alt-right is behind these attacks, and he linked that same group to those who perpetrated the attack in Charlottesville.

Trump: Well, I don’t know. I can’t tell you. I’m sure Senator McCain must know what he’s talking about. But when you say the alt-right...uh, define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead.

[Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.]

Trump: No, define it for me. Come on, let’s go.

Reporter: Senator McCain defined them as the same groups.

Trump: OK. What about the alt-left that came charging at-

[Indistinct.]

Trump: Excuse me, what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right. Do they have any semblance of guilt?

[Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.]

Trump: Let me ask you this. What about the fact they came charging — that they came charging, with clubs in their hands, swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do. So, you know, as far as I’m concerned, that was a horrible, horrible day-

[Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.]

Trump: Wait a minute. I’m not finished. I’m not finished, fake news. That was a horrible day.

Reporter: Is it the same level as neo-Nazis?

Trump: I will tell you something. I watched those very closely, much more closely than you people watched it, and you have- You had a group on one side that was bad and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent. And nobody wants to say that, but I’ll say it right now. You had a group, you had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit and they were very, very violent.

[Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.]

Trump: Go ahead.

Reporter: Do you think what you call the alt-left is the same as neo-Nazis?

Trump: Those people, all of those people- excuse me. I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups, but not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists, by any stretch.

Reporter: Well, white nationalists-

Trump: Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee. So … Excuse me. And you take a look at some of the groups and you see and you’d know it if you were honest reporters — which in many cases you’re not. But many of those people were there to protest the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. So, this week it’s Robert E. Lee. I noticed that Stonewall Jackson is coming down. I wonder is it George Washington next week and is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You know, you really do have to ask yourself where does it stop? But they were there to protest- excuse me. you take a look the night before, they were there to protest the taking down of the statue of the Robert E. Lee. Infrastructure question. Go ahead.

Reporter: Should statues of Robert E. Lee stay up?

Trump: I would say that’s up to a local town, community, or the federal government depending on where it is located.

Reporter: Are you against the Confederacy?

Another reporter: How concerned are you about race relations in America and do you think things have gotten worse or better since you took office?

Trump: I think they have gotten better- or the same- I- look. They’ve been frayed for a long time, and you can ask President Obama about that because he’d make speeches about it. But, I believe that the fact that I brought in, it will be soon, millions of jobs — you see where companies are moving back into our country — I think that’s going to have a tremendous positive impact on race relations. We have companies coming back into our country, we have two car companies that just announced, we have FoxConn in Wisconsin just announced. We have many companies, I say pouring back into the country. I think that’s going to have a huge, positive impact on race relations. You know why? It’s jobs. What people want now, they want jobs. They want great jobs with good pay and, when they have that, you watch how race relations will be. And I’ll tell you, we’re spending a lot of money on the inner cities. We’re fixing the inner cities. We’re doing far more than anybody’s done with respect to the inner cities. It’s a priority for me, and it’s very important.

Reporter: Mr. President, are you putting what you’re calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?

Trump: I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane. What I’m saying is this: You had a group on one side and you had a group on the other and they came at each other with clubs and it was vicious and it was horrible and it was a horrible thing to watch, but there is another side. There was a group on this side — you can call them the left, you’ve just called them the left — that came violently attacking the other group, so you can say what you want but that’s the way it is.

[Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.]

Reporter: Mr. President, your words-

Another reporter: You said there was hatred, there was violence on both sides. Are there-

Trump: Well, I do think there’s blame- Yes. I do think there’s blame on both sides. You look at both sides. I think there’s blame on both sides and I have no doubt about it and you don’t have any doubt about it either and- and- and- and if you reported it accurately, you would say it.

[Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.]

Reporter: Neo-Nazis started this in Charlottesville. They showed up at Charlottesville, they-

Trump: Excuse me.

Reporter: To protest the removal of that-

Trump: [Inaudible.] You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group — excuse me, excuse me — I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

Reporter: Do you support white nationalists, then?

[Cross talk. Reporters shout questions.]

Trump: Well, George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So, will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down- Excuse me. Are we going to take down, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?

Reporter: I do love Thomas Jefferson-

Trump: OK, good. Well, are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue? So, you know what? It’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture and you had people, and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists because they should be condemned, totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, OK? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people, but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats. You got a lot of bad people in the other group, too.

Reporter: Who was treated unfairly? Sir, I’m sorry I don’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? I just don’t understand what you were saying.

Trump: No. No. There were people in that rally — and I looked the night before. If you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people: neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest — and very legally protest, because you know- I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit. So, I only tell you this. There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country, a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country. Does anybody have a final- does anybody- you have an infrastructure question

[canpakes]

What do you make of the fact that Snopes.com disagrees?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/Trump ... ne-people/

We looked into these claims, and found that while Trump did say there were "very fine people on both sides," meaning both the protesters and the counterprotesters, he also condemned neo-Nazis and white nationalists outright and said he was specifically referring to those who were there only to participate in the statue protest.

Snopes is correct to point out that Trump did not specifically point to and identify white nationalists/neonazis as ‘very fine people’.

The problems that I mention don’t include a claim that he did, yet are extremely concerning for similar reasons when the whole transcript is read:

1. Trump’s repeated equivocation, as if trying to placate a particular side, and,

2. Trump’s repeated pointing to the ‘radical left’, when asked to address the actions of white nationalist/neonazi protest participants.

Sometimes I see the nuances of this situation acknowledged, but then there will be a drift back to the mistaken view that there is no nuance to the situation. That is because, I think it is fair to say, Trump is a bigot, and he uses identity to divide people. But ceeboo is going to note that Trump is being misrepresented yet again in references to this event. And is he not, at least in this specific instance?

Ceebs can do that if he wishes, but it’s the thinnest of defenses, based on a technicality of dubious merit, when the entire transcript is considered.

But you have to see the forest for the trees, in my view. Trump's policies and rhetoric very clearly reveal his bigotry and penchant for oppression.

This is exactly the problem.

[Kishkumen]

The problems that I mention don’t include a claim that he did, yet are extremely concerning for similar reasons when the whole transcript is read:

1. Trump’s repeated equivocation, as if trying to placate a particular side, and,

2. Trump’s repeated pointing to the ‘radical left’, when asked to address the actions of white nationalist/neonazi protest participants.

I think the equivocation that you see comes from his recognition of the fact that many of his Southern voters don't agree with taking down Confederate monuments. I also do believe he sees a bias against the extreme political right that comes in the form of not recognizing the violence of the extreme political left. Now, I think he is engaging in exactly the low-IQ false equivalence that makes him unfit for office, but I am not sure he is bright enough to be devious in his own rhetoric. I just don't give him that much credit for being smart. He is a dumb bigot.

Ceebs can do that if he wishes, but it’s the thinnest of defenses, based on a technicality of dubious merit, when the entire transcript is considered.

I am not defending ceeboo so much as trying to understand where he is coming from instead of seeing how I can condemn him. I think you give Trump too much credit. Trump is a dumb bigot. His words read like the words of a dumb bigot. The ramifications of his sloppy, bigoted stupidity are damaging beyond his capability to form the intent imputed to him by others.

This is exactly the problem.

It is, but it is not exactly the situation as it is being made out by your reading of his words.