Trump and Harvard

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Markk
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 4:49 am
‘Markk’ wrote:I guess this is were you just ignore the links …
Lists of random, multiple, unidentified YouTube links of dubious credibility are always going to be ignored. It’s basically a more egregious version of ‘link and run’.

There’s plenty of readable information out that that you should be able to link to if you’re looking to make a case.
LOL, that is so weak.

1. ABC news
2. NBC news
3. A real live video of antisemitism and hate on the Harvard campus.
4. A video of a Jewish Harvard graduate, and his experienece.
5. A Jewish Harvard freshman, and his experience.

You didn't even watch them did you?

Then read these....

https://www.reuters.com/legal/jewish-st ... 025-05-15/

https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2025/01 ... m-lawsuits

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/22/g-s1-441 ... settlement

https://abcnews.go.com/US/forces-harvar ... =106071191

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/02/12225168 ... ay-resigns

At that Dec. 5 hearing, Gay, along with the presidents of the University of Pennsylvania and MIT, struggled to provide clear answers when asked about their policies in cases where students advocate genocide against Jews. Penn's president, Liz Magill, resigned after that testimony, but Harvard's highest governing board initially rejected calls that Gay be remove
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canpakes
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 5:49 am
At that Dec. 5 hearing, Gay, along with the presidents of the University of Pennsylvania and MIT, struggled to provide clear answers when asked about their policies in cases where students advocate genocide against Jews. Penn's president, Liz Magill, resigned after that testimony, but Harvard's highest governing board initially rejected calls that Gay be remove
‘Students’.

Remember the skinhead example given earlier.
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Re: Trump and Harvard

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There have been antisemitic protest on campus for years, with hate, and they were allowed. If you want to deny it fine. Harvard settled more than one lawsuit by Jewish Students, because Harvard as a institution did not protect them and ignored the antisemitism on their campus.... under the 1964 civil rights act....and the former president ended up resigning.
There have been anti-Semitic organizations in this country forever because we have something in this country called freedom of speech and also freedom of association. Trump is using false charges of anti-Semitism to quash opposition to him and opposition to Israel. The right will claim that Christian nationalists with ties to Neo-Nazis should run universities while attacking Pro-Palestinian protestors for opposing the genocide of the people living in Gaza.

You’ve got to be pretty stupid not to see this is a ploy. Trump is definitely racist in his views on Jews.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Markk
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by Markk »

canpakes wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 8:28 am
Markk wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 5:49 am
‘Students’.

Remember the skinhead example given earlier.
Did you read the articles and watch the videos? Yes students, and also faculty, in fact even the president of Harvard.
Cakes: A failure to prevent antisemitic opinions at a protest does not equate to a university promoting antisemitism any more so than a skinhead rally downtown means that your city promotes antisemitism. Your BS isn’t sticking here. You need to do better than this.
That is just nonsense. If the cites mayor and council members were supporting the skins heads, and failed to protect the citizens, and it was an occurring event, and if the mayor more or less said the call for genocide by the skinheads are debatable depending on context, to congress, then that might be comparable to what occurred at Harvard. Again you example is nonsense and just a stretch.

Your continued inability to even apply one ounce of critical thought to the issue, and to watch and read the evidences, let alone have a objective conversation about the topic, is apparent.

Facts remain, Gay resigned because of her handling of antisemitism on campus, and Harvard settled lawsuits from Jewish students claiming they were not protected from it on campus.
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 2:24 pm
There have been antisemitic protest on campus for years, with hate, and they were allowed. If you want to deny it fine. Harvard settled more than one lawsuit by Jewish Students, because Harvard as a institution did not protect them and ignored the antisemitism on their campus.... under the 1964 civil rights act....and the former president ended up resigning.
There have been anti-Semitic organizations in this country forever because we have something in this country called freedom of speech and also freedom of association. Trump is using false charges of anti-Semitism to quash opposition to him and opposition to Israel. The right will claim that Christian nationalists with ties to Neo-Nazis should run universities while attacking Pro-Palestinian protestors for opposing the genocide of the people living in Gaza.

You’ve got to be pretty stupid not to see this is a ploy. Trump is definitely racist in his views on Jews.


Are you saying that people have the right to publicly call for genocide of Israel on the Harvard campus is okay, via the free speech clause, and that by doing so it is not antisemitism?

In my opinion antisemitism protected within the freedom of speech clause is still antisemitism. It is also my opinion that the federal government has the right to not support groups or organizations, orally or financially, that allow antisemitism rhetoric, even if it was not construed as hate speech or in violation of the 1964 Civil Rights act. It appears you feel differently.
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by Markk »

Physics Guy wrote:
Fri May 30, 2025 6:10 pm
A good friend whom I met when we were post-docs at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics is Israeli. He’s a secular Jew and a child of a Holocaust survivor. He and his family have all served in the Israeli Defense Force. And he has spent huge amounts of time organizing protests against his government’s war.

The protests have been large. My friend is far from alone in his grief and horror at his government’s actions. By no means whatever is even the harshest criticism of Israel’s war on Gaza necessarily anti-Semitic.
Does your friend call for, or support those that call for the genocide of Israel as a nation?

There are two different conversation here, I certainly support the right for your friend to say what he feels and wants to, but I also believe that if it crosses the line to antisemitic views, it is just that an antisemitic view.

Free speech does not change prejudice.
Markk
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by Markk »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Fri May 30, 2025 6:51 pm
Physics Guy wrote:
Fri May 30, 2025 6:10 pm
A good friend whom I met when we were post-docs at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics is Israeli. He’s a secular Jew and a child of a Holocaust survivor. He and his family have all served in the Israeli Defense Force. And he has spent huge amounts of time organizing protests against his government’s war.

The protests have been large. My friend is far from alone in his grief and horror at his government’s actions. By no means whatever is even the harshest criticism of Israel’s war on Gaza necessarily anti-Semitic.
PG thank you so much for posting this comment. At first I struggled between being supportive of Israel and being deeply concerned about the brutality inflicted on the people of Gaza, then ultimately settled on compassion for Gaza. It's good to hear that a Jew, whose whole family as you say, served in the IDF also condemns the actions of Israel in this case.

There's nothing anti-Semitic about condemning the decisions and brutality we see, hear, and read about on the part of Israel. That'd be akin to condemning the activity of a US administration and being accused of being anti-US. That type of black and white/either or "thinking" is all too prevalent today. At least I think it is.

If we look back in the Old Testament (which I do) the Lord God Almighty also condemned the actions of Israel while maintaining His steadfast love for them. Christians aren't God, of course, but we can certainly take our cues from what we see in scripture and take a stand for what is right and good.

Thank you again for sharing.
I agree with part of what you wrote, but disagree with parts of it also.

God, in the Old Testament, was very protective of Israel, as His chosen people, the apple of His eye." He gave Israel to the Jews, and according to God it is their land. From the Euphrates River and the Mediterranean Sea (the river to the sea) is their promised land. The land that Moses could not enter and Joshua led them in.

Israel was disobedient then, and they are today in that most Jews are agnostic at best, and in the Bible God is going to deal with Israel....but that does no erase that according to the Bible, the Land is theirs.
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canpakes
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by canpakes »

Markk wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 3:46 pm
canpakes wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 8:28 am


‘Students’.

Remember the skinhead example given earlier.
Did you read the articles and watch the videos? Yes students, and also faculty, in fact even the president of Harvard.
Cakes: A failure to prevent antisemitic opinions at a protest does not equate to a university promoting antisemitism any more so than a skinhead rally downtown means that your city promotes antisemitism. Your BS isn’t sticking here. You need to do better than this.
That is just nonsense. If the cites mayor and council members were supporting the skins heads, and failed to protect the citizens, and it was an occurring event, and if the mayor more or less said the call for genocide by the skinheads are debatable depending on context, to congress, then that might be comparable to what occurred at Harvard. Again you example is nonsense and just a stretch.

Your continued inability to even apply one ounce of critical thought to the issue, and to watch and read the evidences, let alone have a objective conversation about the topic, is apparent.

Facts remain, Gay resigned because of her handling of antisemitism on campus, and Harvard settled lawsuits from Jewish students claiming they were not protected from it on campus.
None of this supports your claim that Harvard supports antisemitism.

Case in point: when students (and non-students) supporting Israel and wielding sticks attacked students supporting Palestinians at UCLA just over a month ago.

What does that say about UCLA?

It’s that simple.
Chap
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by Chap »

More antisemitic Nazi Jews say "not in our name" at Columbia:

Jewish organizers are increasingly confronting Trump: ‘The repression is growing, but so is the resistance’

Jewish organizers are increasingly confronting Trump: ‘The repression is growing, but so is the resistance’
As the administration continues to exploit antisemitism to arrest protesters and curb academic freedoms, more American Jews are saying ‘not in my name’


Try to read this through, Markk.
The Guardian, 31 May 2025

On the morning of Columbia University’s commencement last week, an intergenerational group of Jewish alumni gathered in the rain outside the Manhattan campus’s heavily policed gates, wearing keffiyehs and shirts emblazoned with the words “not in our name”. Two had graduated more than 60 years earlier, and one spoke of having fled the Nazis to the US as a child. Others recalled participating in Columbia protests of the past, including those that led the university to divest from apartheid South Africa.

They spoke as alumni and as Jews to condemn the university’s investments in Israel, its repression of pro-Palestinian speech, and its capitulation to the Trump administration’s assault on academic freedom in the name of fighting antisemitism on campus. They had planned to burn their Columbia diplomas in protest, but the rain got in their way, so many ripped them to pieces instead.


“As a Jewish person, I’m really appalled at the idea that they are trying to make it sound as if opposing genocide is somehow antisemitic,” said Josh Dubnau, a professor at Stony Brook University who received a PhD from Columbia in 1995 and led the protest. “There are thousands of us who don’t believe in the right of the Jewish people to ethnically cleanse Palestine. There were Jews thousands of years before Zionism, and there will be Jews when Zionism is in the dustbin of history.”

Another alumnus, who graduated last year after being suspended over her participation in campus protests, wore a graduation gown and carried the photo of one of nearly 15,000 Palestinian students killed in Gaza during the current war.

“We have a particular duty to show up as Jews because we are not being actively targeted in the way that Palestinian students, Muslim students and Arab students are,” said the student, who asked to remain anonymous. “It’s our duty to weaponise our privilege as Jewish students.” New York police arrested her along with another protester after they set their Columbia diplomas on fire.

Nineteen months into Israel’s war in Gaza and the US protest movement it prompted, allegations of antisemitism on campuses have become one of the primary pretexts for the Trump administration’s multipronged attack on higher education, including billions in funding cuts, demands universities submit to a string of measures curtailing their academic freedom, and the detention and attempted deportation of international students who expressed pro-Palestinian views.

But increasingly, Jewish students, faculty and alumni are pushing back against the exploitation of antisemitism charges to justify repressive policies they say do not represent their Jewish values. They have written letters, led protests, lobbied legislators and denounced what they say is the systematic exclusion of Jewish perspectives that are critical of Israel from the national conversation over antisemitism.

Jewish Americans – some identifying as “anti-Zionists”, others with a range of views about Israel – have been at the forefront of the movement against the war in Gaza. Last summer, some 200 people, almost all Jewish, were arrested at a protest on Capitol Hill a day before a visit by Benjamin Netanyahu. Earlier this year, more than 350 rabbis, along with more Jewish creatives and activists, signed a New York Times ad denouncing Donald Trump’s proposal to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

But Jewish-led organising has broadened in recent months. As Jewish Americans continue to protest the war, they are also taking on Trump’s onslaught against higher education in the name of Jewish safety, rallying around detained students and condemning what they view as the exploitation of antisemitism in the service of a rightwing political project. In yet another New York Times ad, several former heads of leading Jewish advocacy groups, including conservative ones like Aipac and Hillel International, criticised US Jewish groups that “have been far too silent about the stunning assault on democratic norms and the rule of law” under Trump.

“The repression has been growing, but so has the resistance,” said Marianne Hirsch, a retired literature professor at Columbia University, who researches memory and the Holocaust and is outspoken against efforts to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. “I’m seeing a really cross-generational, Jewish faculty, student, and community mobilisation against this narrative.”

A need for nuance

Jewish Americans’ views on Israel, the war in Gaza, antisemitism on campuses and the Trump administration’s actions are far more complex than mainstream political discourse may suggest.

A recent poll by the Jewish Voters Resource Center found that a majority of Jewish Americans are concerned about antisemitism and say they are “emotionally attached” to Israel, although older respondents poll much higher on both questions than younger ones. But the survey also found that 64% disapprove of Trump’s policies to purportedly combat antisemitism, and 61% believe arresting and deporting pro-Palestinian protesters contribute to increased antisemitism. A rightwing Israeli thinktank found last year that one-third of American Jews believe Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.


While large numbers of Jewish students point to feelings of ostracization on campus in the last year and a half, their views on the campus protests vary widely. A qualitative study of the experiences of Jewish students, published this month, criticizes representations of campus life that “compartmentalize students into either/or categories, diminishing nuances between them”. The authors point to “a need for nuanced discussions about Israel, antisemitism, and Jewish identity that respect generational differences and diverse perspectives”.

But tackling complex questions – for instance, about when anti-Zionism veers into antisemitism – has become difficult in an increasingly repressive climate. “It is making it impossible to have discussions in the classroom,” said Joel Swanson, a Jewish studies professor at Sarah Lawrence College.

Swanson noted that many Jewish Americans are now mobilising against precisely the kind of repression their ancestors came to the US to escape. “The very liberal principles that have enabled Jewish thriving in the United States are being chipped away at systematically, one by one,” he said.

Many of those who identify as anti-Zionist have found a home under the umbrella of Jewish Voice for Peace, a pro-Palestinian Jewish group whose membership has doubled since the war started – to 32,000 dues-paying members – and whose student chapters were banned from several campuses during last year’s protests. In Baltimore, earlier this month, members of the group’s dozens of chapters gathered for a national convening. Over four days of workshops at the heavily secured event, participants talked about organising from campuses to religious spaces to promote a “Judaism beyond Zionism”, as the conference tagline read, as well as address authoritarianism in the US.

Leaning on Jewishness

As US universities have become political battlefields, much Jewish organising is happening on campuses and academic spaces.

Responding to what they view as a crisis in their scholarly field precipitated by Israel’s atrocities in Gaza, Hirsch, the Columbia scholar and others have launched a multidisciplinary Genocide and Holocaust Studies Crisis Network, a group of mostly Jewish academics invoking their expertise to advocate against universities capitulating to authoritarianism.

Jewish faculty and students have also organised in defense of pro-Palestinian students detained by the Trump administration. Following the arrest of Mahmoud Khalil, a Palestinian permanent resident and Columbia University graduate who has been detained for nearly three months with no charges, more than 3,400 Jewish faculty across the country signed a letter to denounce “without equivocation, anyone who invokes our name – and cynical claims of antisemitism – to harass, expel, arrest, or deport members of our campus communities”. Several Jewish students and faculty wrote letters to the court in support of Khalil. And Jewish groups and synagogues filed a court briefing in support of Rümeysa Öztürk, a Turkish Tufts University student who was detained over an op-ed critical of Israel and released earlier this month as her case continues.

“Jewish people came to America to escape generations of similar predations,” they wrote. “Yet the images of Ozturk’s arrest in twenty-first century Massachusetts evoke the oppressive tactics employed by the authoritarian regimes that many ancestors of [our] members left behind in Odessa, Kishinev, and Warsaw.”

Faculty and students have also denounced congressional hearings against antisemitism on campuses that they say misrepresent their experiences and exclude their perspectives. As their president prepared to face legislators for a fresh round of antisemitism hearings in Congress this month, Jewish faculty and students at Haverford College issued a statement saying that their voices “have absolutely not been represented in the current public discussion of antisemitism” and questioning the credibility of mostly non-Jewish, Republican legislators leading the battle over antisemitism on campuses.

Earlier this month, a group of Jewish students from Columbia University visited Congress to talk to legislators about their participation in campus protests that politicians paint as antisemitic, bringing their views “to lawmakers who are almost never hearing from that specific perspective”, said Beth Miller, the political director of Jewish Voice for Peace’s action group, who accompanied the group.

As the Trump administration has sought to justify its repressive measures in their names, many American Jews have found themselves invoking their Jewishness in a public way for the first time. “We’ve been criticising identity politics and the way everything gets siloed into identities, and suddenly we find ourselves saying ‘as Jewish faculty’ or ‘as the daughter of Holocaust survivors’,” said Hirsch.

“I’ve always tried to steer clear of having a public Jewish identity. I never felt like I had to advertise it,” echoed Joshua Moses, an anthropology professor at Haverford College. “But this moment kind of demands it.”
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Gunnar
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Re: Trump and Harvard

Post by Gunnar »

Markk wrote:
Sat May 31, 2025 4:56 pm
God, in the Old Testament, was very protective of Israel, as His chosen people, the apple of His eye." He gave Israel to the Jews, and according to God it is their land. From the Euphrates River and the Mediterranean Sea (the river to the sea) is their promised land. The land that Moses could not enter and Joshua led them in.

Israel was disobedient then, and they are today in that most Jews are agnostic at best, and in the Bible God is going to deal with Israel....but that does no erase that according to the Bible, the Land is theirs.
I do not believe that any more than I believe in the tooth fairy. Nor do I believe that God commanded the Israelites to utterly destroy the Amalekites, including men, women, children, infants and all their livestock. That was no more than a myth invented by the Israelites after the fact to justify and salve their consciences for atrocities they or their ancestors had already committed. Stories like that are among the strongest reasons why I reject that the Bible is any more divinely inspired by a just God than anything else that has ever been written. The Bible is a remarkable book that greatly influenced our civilization both for good and bad. One can hardly consider oneself to be adequately educated without at least a passing acquaintance with its contents, but it contains both authentic history and mythology, both truth and fiction, both inspiring wisdom and nonsense. But I have long ago given up the conviction that it is any more or less the word of mortal humans than anything else that has ever been written.

I deplore the horrible treatment and the long historical discrimination against the Jews, and most especially the Nazi inspired Holocaust during WWII, but I deplore just as much the current atrocities committed by Israel's IDF against the Palestinians in Gaza. There are many Jews who feel the same way, so it is not antisemitic to criticize the extremes being taken by the nation of Israel in Gaza, unless one points out that the Arabs being mercilessly killed there are just as much Semitic as the Jews themselves. Certainly, the Hamas attack on Jews on October 7 was horrible and atrocious, but the over-the-top indiscriminate reactions of Israel against all Gazans, both Muslim, Christian and otherwise are at least as bad and are justly condemned by both non-Jews and many Jews--even within Israel.

[edited to correct a typo]
Last edited by Gunnar on Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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