Theory of Capitalism collapses

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_Droopy
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _Droopy »

Kevin Graham wrote:More references to Droopy's only source in the universe, I see. "Mises.org", of course, the home of well-refuted, well-outdated and fringe economic theory. I've dealt with Droopy's ignorance on this subject in the numerous threads linked above and elsewhere. No need to rehash it all for his benefit, since that would presume he were interested in learning. Can't teach an old dog new tricks. I learned this the hard way with my step father. Old farts generally want the "answers" to everything to found in the prevailing wisdom of their day, hence, Droopy's hard-nosed infatuation with Mises, Rand, Skousen, etc.



Good to see you are still here, with absolutely nothing of substance to add to any discussion but deploying a formidable arsenal of narcissistic self congratulation regarding your own alleged intellectual exploits, ad hominem jabs, and logical emptiness.

Good show.

I've never read a word of Skousen on economics, but for some reason (probably the heat of the Brazilian jungle) Kevin believes that I have.

Or is there more in the jungle besides heat?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Droopy wrote:This slowness is an inherent aspect and feature of the Constitution as written and one of the major protections of our unalienable rights and individual liberties. That you wish to dispense with it is telling, no?

If you'd read the rest of the sentence you half-quoted, you'd see that I consider the slowness of government to be ultimately advantageous. How you concluded that I want to do away with it-- let alone with the Constitution!-- is completely beyond me.

This is a perfect illustration of why attempting to have a serious discussion with Droopy just isn't worth the effort.
_Droopy
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _Droopy »

Virtually everyone in the field of economics disagrees, except for a minority who generally hail from the Right/Center-Right.


This teenage-like retreat to argument by authority, which is perhaps Kevin's favorite technique as soon as he realizes he has no logical arguments or evidence to present in support of his claims, probably takes a back seat only to his cries of "idiot," "stupid," and "moron" as his favorite polemical standards.

In point of fact, numerous economists find the whole long discredited Keynesian "stimulus" argument fallacious. When even the Clinton Broadcasting System feels it has to report on the dissent, one knows something is the pot is bubbling to he surface.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/ ... 9532.shtml

Graham's claim here is pure bluster. In point of fact, the standard academic/government/media iron triangle of ideological orthodoxy only appears to be "mainstream" because these views are mainstream within it and it controls and mediates most of the popular political discourse within the nation, as it manipulates and gatekeeps the construction and dissemination of "news." Within the Ruling Class and the atmosphere of groupthink that permeates so much of its institutions (academia, the foundations, the mainstream media and government generally), Keynesian and socialist/progressive doctrines are unquestioned articles of faith.

The conservative and libertarian dismantling of Keynesian "stimulus" (which is really nothing more nor less then economic and political stimulus of government and its dependent constituencies), like that of Marxism, was complete generations ago, and nothing our modern feverish pitchfork wavers can say can ever bring the rotting corpse back to life. The Obama "stimulus" is, truth be told, nothing more than a pretext for the permanent and massive expansion of government, and the jobs that have been preserved up to now, primarily heavily unionized government employees, public school teachers, community organizers and activist groups (such as ACORN) have no more stimulative effect on the general economy than does breaking windows to provide jobs for glaziers.

I could launch into a monograph length evisceration of the economy killing, wealth wasting and destroying, and freedom suffocating "stimulus" so loved by statists and power mongers everywhere, but the hour is late and I've better things to do than go over this yet again for people who are neither open to rational discourse or capable of education.

In total contradistinction to Kevin's evidenceless assertion, CATO published this full page add in teh NYT:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/ ... 9532.shtml

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/economis ... -stimulus/

But wait, there's more:

http://www.speaker.gov/UploadedFiles/Bo ... 3-11-1.pdf

Then again, we turn to one of the most prestigious and respected think tanks in the nation, The Heritage Foundation, for substantive critique:

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/09/04/mor ... -stimulus/

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Testim ... lus-Failed

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commen ... n-Stimulus

http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoov ... ticle/5323

http://www.hoover.org/news/daily-report/58641

Well, as always, we could go on and on and on. Government spending to stimulate the economcy is a violation of fundametnal economic principles and elementary logic. None of the "jobs" created by such spending whether they are government employees hired or protected from layoffs (who were already a net drain on the economy in the first place) or private sector workers hired for public works projects which create no wealth (doing nothing more than shifting it from one place and one usage to another) and create no new net wealth in the economy and hence, no economic growth, have any net economic benefit, save to favored industries and constituency groups, who enjoy their windfall at the expense of the rest of the economy and their fellow citizens.

Every single penny of stimulus spending is either first taken out of the productive private sector economy through taxation, or, more likely, created out of thin air by the state. Sustained inflation, high unemployment, sagging job creation, and a shrinking economy (all of which have increased and expanded since the stimulus began) are what both theory and experience (FDR's turning of a what should have been a serious but short lived recession into the Great Depression through very much the same policies) demonstrate are to be expected from

Utterly insipid politically motivated economic boondoggles such as the ethanol mandate and the phantasm of "green" energy are the satisfying ideological outgrowths of the omnipresent, guiding, mailed hand of the caregiver state that has arisen in response to massive economic problems it itself was primarily responsible for creating.

Keynesian stimulus can never work (and never has) because its an entirely circular, closed loop within which money is taken from one part of the economy (or created out of thin air) and injected into another part. No wealth has been created here, but only shifted or reallocated according to non-market considerations. A bridge built with such stimulus money cannot be considered as the creation of wealth, and the construction jobs cannot be considered as real jobs, not because no work was done, and not because some piece of wealth (a bridge) did not appear somewhere, but because there is no net economic gain here; the economy is no larger, no more expanded or increased, and no healthier than when the recession began. The money in the pockets of the construction workers has not been created by productive economic activity but simply reallocated to their pockets through redistributional economic activity. Redistribution is not production. Shifting one pile of money from one place and one use to another is not wealth creation.

the money given to those construction workers as wages is not new net wealth, but money either taken out of the pockets of their fellow citizens, or money created by debt and inflation and transferred to them as a paycheck.

The illusion is complete for the workers and their families.

Further, the fiscal stimuls was not designed to boost the economy so much as it was intended to save the economy from what was predicted by many to be an imminent collapse.


No immanent collapse was ever so much as remotely plausible. This is can't.

Folks on the Right will point out the negatives of our current economy and conclude the fiscal stimuls didn't work at all. But they refuse to see the larger picture in that the economy was in a complete free-fall at the time the Presidency was being handed over to Obama, and since the fiscal stimulus was enacted, the economy has essentially leveled off.


Hmmm...let's see. Obama promised the creation of 3.5 million new jobs through his stimulus program (as if 3.5 million new government jobs or private sector jobs funded by taxation or fiat money creation, both in direct conflict with the requirements of sustained real economic growth in the real world private sector economy, would actually stimulate much more than the economic welfare of the specific recipients of such funds and a few indirect, peripheral entities). What happened? 3.3 million jobs had been lost by the beginning of 2010. The unemployment rate was 7.7 percent in January of 2009, when The One was promulgating his stimulus plan. By 2010, the unemployment rate was 9.7% and was at nearly 9.8% as recently as November (the real rate of unemployment, when taking people who have quit looking for work are taken into consideration is around double the official number - depression era rates).

By now, most are aware that the entire stimulus is fundamentally a political payoff to the heavily moneyed Democratic constituency groups, foremost among them the big labor unions (and particularly, the government unions, which is really the last bastion of an otherwise fading, dinosaurian movement in the private sector).

The Obama stimulus, in other words, is a great, staggeringly expensive political money laundering operation. Its recipients and beneficiaries are content to have it this way, no doubt, but none of this is sustainable, either economically or morally.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _Droopy »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Droopy wrote:This slowness is an inherent aspect and feature of the Constitution as written and one of the major protections of our unalienable rights and individual liberties. That you wish to dispense with it is telling, no?

If you'd read the rest of the sentence you half-quoted, you'd see that I consider the slowness of government to be ultimately advantageous. How you concluded that I want to do away with it-- let alone with the Constitution!-- is completely beyond me.

This is a perfect illustration of why attempting to have a serious discussion with Droopy just isn't worth the effort.


The very conservatism that makes democratic governments wasteful and slow to respond to changing circumstances is also what makes them good regulatory agencies.


I only half quoted it because the last half of the paragraph is not relevant to the core assertion you made - which is what I wanted to respond to - in the first part that "conservatism" makes democratic government "wasteful and slow", a state of affairs you implicitly deplore, in contrast with the wonderful regulatory function you clearly approve of.

My response was to point out my disagreement with the your fundamental implication that (waste aside, which I believe I pointed out has little to do with conservatism and much more to do with the inherent attributes of government itself and the nature of government bureaucracy) the slowness and inefficiency of government is a negative. But, while I'm at it, I also don't agree with or approve of much of the regulatory activity of the modern state, much, if not at this point, most of which, is neither constitutional or remotely necessary.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Nothing in my statement suggests that I "deplore" the slowness of government. The first half of my statement was only referring to the reasons why government is a poor manager of planned economies and state-owned industries. I suspect that you even agree with me on this point, which is why it's so inane that you took my statement as some kind of swipe at the Constitution.
_EAllusion
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _EAllusion »

The majority of economists did favor a stimulus program in response to the recession. I sided with the minority, largely Chicago school types, who opposed it. It was one of those situations where I felt the need to be cautious, informed, and humble because I knew I was disagreeing with the majority of experts. Droopy, as best I can tell, fell into convulsions, as if possessed by the power of the ghost.
_Droopy
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _Droopy »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Nothing in my statement suggests that I "deplore" the slowness of government. The first half of my statement was only referring to the reasons why government is a poor manager of planned economies and state-owned industries. I suspect that you even agree with me on this point, which is why it's so inane that you took my statement as some kind of swipe at the Constitution.



So then, your statement that "The very conservatism that makes democratic governments wasteful and slow to respond to changing circumstances" was not a criticism of that slowness with response to "changing circumstances," but an appreciation?

Name one regulatory agency that does a "good," job at anything, in the sense of rational, competent internal management, efficiency, ethical comportment with respect to the entities regulated, and the respecting of constitutional limits.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:The majority of economists did favor a stimulus program in response to the recession. I sided with the minority, largely Chicago school types, who opposed it. It was one of those situations where I felt the need to be cautious, informed, and humble because I knew I was disagreeing with the majority of experts. Droopy, as best I can tell, fell into convulsions, as if possessed by the power of the ghost.



Move along...nothing to see here.

http://reason.org/blog/show/did-most-ec ... rt-the-sti

Neither EAllusion or Graham can make any substantive statement regarding how many professional economists did or did not support the stimulus because clear empirical data do not as of yet exist. What we do have suggests no consensus or broad agreement whatsoever.

Even if a clear plurality are found to support the stimulus, this may reflect nothing more than the continuing ascendancy of Keynesian - one among a number of long standing ideological orthodoxies that have come to dominate the humanities and social sciences within the academy during the 20th century - economics and which, like feminism, multiculturalism, Afrocentrism, postmodernism, and various forms of neo-Marxism, continues to hold unquestioned court in the Ivory Tower.

The classic argument from authority, in other words, tells us nothing regarding whether or not those arguments are sustainable under critical analysis. The argument from authority, even in our postmodern age, is still, after all, an example of logical fallacy.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Wisdom Seeker
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _Wisdom Seeker »

Droopy wrote:
Wisdom Seeker wrote:We are not playing Monopoly here, the winner take all capitalism path that the U.S. is on will force you to sell your Baltic Avenue and you or your children are going to lose this game.



What does this term mean?


Did not see this, but here is my take. The game of Monopoly includes luck and strategy and a single winner emerges. I see the current set of rules favoring and being changed to favor the extreme upper class at the expense of the middle and lower classes. I think many still feel they are playing a fair game and trickle-down economics will apply, but those owning Park Place and Boardwalk are playing to win and will do their best to eliminate you from this game.
_Droopy
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Re: Theory of Capitalism collapses

Post by _Droopy »

Did not see this, but here is my take. The game of Monopoly includes luck and strategy and a single winner emerges.


Real life and the real economy, however, are not a game of Monopoly.

I see the current set of rules favoring and being changed to favor the extreme upper class at the expense of the middle and lower classes.


How?

I think many still feel they are playing a fair game and trickle-down economics will apply, but those owning Park Place and Boardwalk are playing to win and will do their best to eliminate you from this game.


In a truly free market social order within a rule of law based free society, however, they have utterly no power to do so, unless empowered by and protected in their attempts to do so by the state
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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