The Redacted Mueller Report

[_ajax18]

I wonder where this comes from? How can so many people harbor so much ill will towards their fellow countrymen that it consumes the oxygen of political discourse completely so there's nothing left for discourse?

I think it has to do with the amount of power government has and how much financial harm we can inflict upon each other through our vote. Majorities can be as tyrannical as any king.

[_Maksutov]

I wonder where this comes from? How can so many people harbor so much ill will towards their fellow countrymen that it consumes the oxygen of political discourse completely so there's nothing left for discourse?

I think it has to do with the amount of power government has and how much financial harm we can inflict upon each other through our vote. Majorities can be as tyrannical as any king.

Yes, the right to vote is "inflicting harm". Enjoy your serfdom.

[_canpakes]

I wonder where this comes from? How can so many people harbor so much ill will towards their fellow countrymen that it consumes the oxygen of political discourse completely so there's nothing left for discourse?

I think it has to do with the amount of power government has and how much financial harm we can inflict upon each other through our vote. Majorities can be as tyrannical as any king.

Something to consider if you have children. The debt they’ll need to finance or repay has never been higher, and has been brought to that point now under a man enthusiastically supported by voters who claim most loudly to hate having financial harm inflicted upon them.

[_honorentheos]

I wonder where this comes from? How can so many people harbor so much ill will towards their fellow countrymen that it consumes the oxygen of political discourse completely so there's nothing left for discourse?

I think it has to do with the amount of power government has and how much financial harm we can inflict upon each other through our vote. Majorities can be as tyrannical as any king.

I bumped an old thread where I shared this quote from Bill Clinton precisely because of what you say above:

"Amercia at it's core is an idea - the idea that no matter who you are or where you're from, if you work hard and play by the rules, you'll have the freedom and opportunity to pursue your own dreams and leave your kids a country where they can chase theirs."

When I started the OP 6 years ago, that quote seemed to me to be a point of common ground that we could all agree upon. Since then, I've realized my mistake wasn't in this idea not being a shared view of the American ideal but that so many view their fellow citizens who have different political views as working against the idea. If one listens to conservative talk radio callers, the majority share a belief that so-called liberals and Democrats have a singular aim of taking as much money as possible from hardworking Americans and using it to sustain their freeloading lifestyles. If one listens to hardcore Trump-hating liberals, one hears a common view that so-called conservatives are essentially trying to hold onto an oppressive system that keeps too many hard working, equally capable people down in order to enrich the wealthy and appease the racial, ignorant masses.

We have the same ideal. We just can't get over the stereotyped propaganda that paints one another as irredeemable villains working against it.

[_EAllusion]

I don’t know. That reads to me as some coked out Aaron Sorkin liberal fantasy version of America that elides real ideological differences among people in power and lots of real, competing, not all benevolent motives among the public.

[_EAllusion]

Ajax18 seems to view voting as an opportunity to help people he sees as like him and hurt those he hates with the latter framed as an act of self-defense. That’s not a misunderstanding of him pursuing the American dream. He’s an authoritarian at heart with bigotries particular to his cultural context that weigh heavily on what he wants out of government.

He’s not alone, and it does damage to not meet his politics on their own terms because of a misguided belief in the nobility of people’s desires.

[_EAllusion]

Coked out Aaron Sorkin screenwriting is basically an idealized version of Bill Clinton minus the sleaze if you only ever paid attention to his speeches, so I am extra happy with the comparison in retrospect.

[_Some Schmo]

You can't take Trump supporters seriously, because they rarely say anything that makes sense. This thread demonstrates that in spades.

For several years, we watched the GOP try to manufacture a scandal out of Benghazi and the ACA with no success. They accused high-ranking Democrats of crimes, lying, and breaking promises.

Now that Democrats are saying similar things about Trump because Trump actually is as bad as all that (and obviously so), Republicans are accusing Democrats of a political hit job. Of course they think that; that's what the GOP did, after all. They have first-hand experience with that type of noxious thinking. Republicans made up all that crap about Democrats; why wouldn't the Democrats do it back?

The GOP is nothing at all without hypocrisy. They are so morally bankrupt, in their world, everything is "political." God forbid they should actually govern.

[_Maksutov]

You can't take Trump supporters seriously, because they rarely say anything that makes sense. This thread demonstrates that in spades.

For several years, we watched the GOP try to manufacture a scandal out of Benghazi and the ACA with no success. They accused high-ranking Democrats of crimes, lying, and breaking promises.

Now that Democrats are saying similar things about Trump because Trump actually is as bad as all that (and obviously so), Republicans are accusing Democrats of a political hit job. Of course they think that; that's what the GOP did, after all. They have first-hand experience with that type of noxious thinking. Republicans made up all that ____ about Democrats; why wouldn't the Democrats do it back?

The GOP is nothing at all without hypocrisy. They are so morally bankrupt, in their world, everything is "political." God forbid they should actually govern.

Projection is the prime tactic. And they depend on the collective amnesia and apathy, with considerable success.

[_ajax18]

]Ajax18 seems to view voting as an opportunity to help people he sees as like him and hurt those he hates with the latter framed as an act of self-defense.

What exactly do I want to do that is hurting people? If you're criticizing my view of limiting welfare handouts that may be a failure to act but it's hardly seeking to damage to anyone. You view me as cruel and selfish for limiting the number of impoverished immigrants that enter the country. Yes I am protecting others like me in this case. I'm looking out for the best interests of fellow American citizens to whom I am loyal, not citizens of the world.

That’s not a misunderstanding of him pursuing the American dream.

No, that's exactly what you're doing.

He’s an authoritarian

I have no idea what you could mean by this. How exactly am I an authoritarian? I think this must be a mirror diagnosis when the truth is that you're one of the most authoritarian people I've ever met. You think you know better than most of your impoverished constituency, openly hate Republicans and would see executed anyone who disagrees with your world view if you had the power to do so.

at heart with bigotries particular to his cultural context that weigh heavily on what he wants out of government.

Could you not say the same thing about an inner city welfare queen voter? Why is it only wrong for me to vote in accordance with my self interest in mind but not for democrats to do the same? And by the way, voting for Trump is in the best interest of every legal American citizen even those on some kind of welfare.

He’s not alone, and it does damage to not meet his politics on their own terms because of a misguided belief in the nobility of people’s desires.

If everyone thought as you did there would most certainly be civil war at this point. You're nothing but a tyrant who thankfully has not yet been able to achieve emperor status.