Drawings by immigrant children

[_canpakes]

I believe i is impossible t get you to comment on the real problem and issue with the border...you ignore my question and just look for ways to spin away from them.

Markk, the solution to the problem is obvious. Just have contractors hire these border crossers. That way, the contractors won't have to pay 'citizen wages' to all of their teams and we can staff them with the manpower they need to take on more projects and Make America Great Again.

I mean, that's pretty much the major factor that drove these folks here, right? The ability to work and earn some money, from companies that willingly hire them, even knowing that they're 'illegals'? And it's the current functional model even for the company you work for, right? If I remember correctly, you were mentioning earlier how you're having trouble finding workers, now that the border crackdown is in full force. It's strange that regular Americans can't fulfill that need, but I guess that's just how the industry has set itself up, or how hiring realities play out ...

[_honorentheos]

What started our back and forth was your making this claim -

There is nothing different happening now under Trump that was happening under Obama, or Bush...there is just more of it.

I said that was wrong, you took issue and asked for evidence. I provided evidence that the way Trump was handling things was also making things worse and then we ended up in a tail spin. I told you what I thought was an important and impactful immediate step - funding resources to get applicants through the process more expeditiously in accordance with the law. I'm not for so called open borders and don't know a single person who is. I have said before I supported the Obama era practise you might call catch and release because it complied with the law and was generally effective. But under Obama the process was extremely underfunded and it's worse than ever. Trump's policies discouraging asylum requests at ports of entry encourage dangerous desert crossings so your binary question about whether or not people are better off in poorly equiped overcrowded detention centers for long periods than attempting dangerous crossings is a misdirecting question. It's a version of the thread bare example of asking when a person stopped hitting their wife.

The idea Trump is doing more than any president is silly, but it's also at odds with your first comment above about everything just being more of what was happening under Obama. Trump has been attempting to find ways to get around the law that are new by seeing what will get past the courts, and he is asserting silly things regarding a physical border while he also points to barriers previously built or approved and takes credit for them which seem to be in line with how you view things. I won't hold out hope you'll offer much to clarify but rather just assert how everything is bad, Washington is the worst and politicians are just talk but but Trump is doing things so action is all you really wanted to see on the issue while ignoring what you've already said about the actions of past administrations. You're not exactly what one might consider a good faith discussion partner Markk.

[_Markk]

What started our back and forth was your making this claim -

There is nothing different happening now under Trump that was happening under Obama, or Bush...there is just more of it.

I said that was wrong, you took issue and asked for evidence. I provided evidence that the way Trump was handling things was also making things worse and then we ended up in a tail spin. I told you what I thought was an important and impactful immediate step - funding resources to get applicants through the process more expeditiously in accordance with the law. I'm not for so called open borders and don't know a single person who is. I have said before I supported the Obama era practise you might call catch and release because it complied with the law and was generally effective. But under Obama the process was extremely underfunded and it's worse than ever. Trump's policies discouraging asylum requests at ports of entry encourage dangerous desert crossings so your binary question about whether or not people are better off in poorly equiped overcrowded detention centers for long periods than attempting dangerous crossings is a misdirecting question. It's a version of the thread bare example of asking when a person stopped hitting their wife.

The idea Trump is doing more than any president is silly, but it's also at odds with your first comment above about everything just being more of what was happening under Obama. Trump has been attempting to find ways to get around the law that are new by seeing what will get past the courts, and he is asserting silly things regarding a physical border while he also points to barriers previously built or approved and takes credit for them which seem to be in line with how you view things. I won't hold out hope you'll offer much to clarify but rather just assert how everything is bad, Washington is the worst and politicians are just talk but but Trump is doing things so action is all you really wanted to see on the issue while ignoring what you've already said about the actions of past administrations. You're not exactly what one might consider a good faith discussion partner Markk.

Bull, to your last sentence. You get mad when someone points out errors in the talking points that form your ideology.

In one breath you are stating that Trump is doing more, then in the next you accuse him, becasue of his actions, are making it worse. your post is all over the place. He is stuck dealing with a problem that is out of control, and is actually, right or wrong, pushing his agenda.

Where did I say more of being the same under Obama? I would like to see the context of what I wrote.

[_Markk]

Markk, the solution to the problem is obvious. Just have contractors hire these border crossers. That way, the contractors won't have to pay 'citizen wages' to all of their teams and we can staff them with the manpower they need to take on more projects and Make America Great Again.

I mean, that's pretty much the major factor that drove these folks here, right? The ability to work and earn some money, from companies that willingly hire them, even knowing that they're 'illegals'? And it's the current functional model even for the company you work for, right? If I remember correctly, you were mentioning earlier how you're having trouble finding workers, now that the border crackdown is in full force. It's strange that regular Americans can't fulfill that need, but I guess that's just how the industry has set itself up, or how hiring realities play out ...

LOL...your ignorance abounds.

The company I work in is in Los Angeles...we work mainly in LA, OC, and San Diego Counties. In these counties there are Millions of illegal immigrants...and there is no othera choice if you want to win a contract. You simply have no idea what is going on, and what the market demands.

If you a person 16-25 dollars and hour, or pay them 35-45 dollars and hour...who will win the contract using those numbers? You can pay a warehouse worker 15 to 20 dollars with no benefits, or more with benefits...who has the competitive market share?

It is to the point now where in many trades and niches, illegals are pretty much the only ones doing the hands on work.

Canpakes...again, there are millions of illegals...wake up.

[_canpakes]

Markk, the solution to the problem is obvious. Just have contractors hire these border crossers. That way, the contractors won't have to pay 'citizen wages' to all of their teams and we can staff them with the manpower they need to take on more projects and Make America Great Again.

I mean, that's pretty much the major factor that drove these folks here, right? The ability to work and earn some money, from companies that willingly hire them, even knowing that they're 'illegals'? And it's the current functional model even for the company you work for, right? If I remember correctly, you were mentioning earlier how you're having trouble finding workers, now that the border crackdown is in full force. It's strange that regular Americans can't fulfill that need, but I guess that's just how the industry has set itself up, or how hiring realities play out ...

LOL...your ignorance abounds.

The company I work in is in Los Angeles...we work mainly in LA, OC, and San Diego Counties. In these counties there are Millions of illegal immigrants...and there is no othera choice if you want to win a contract. You simply have no idea what is going on, and what the market demands.

If you a person 16-25 dollars and hour, or pay them 35-45 dollars and hour...who will win the contract using those numbers? You can pay a warehouse worker 15 to 20 dollars with no benefits, or more with benefits...who has the competitive market share?

It is to the point now where in many trades and niches, illegals are pretty much the only ones doing the hands on work.

Canpakes...again, there are millions of illegals...wake up.

Markk, I’m fully aware that there are millions of illegals. I’ve spent several decades living in both CA and AZ, and a fair amount of that time working with companies that depend upon illegal immigrant labor. And while it’s nice of you to avoid the point by pretending that my tongue-in-cheek post means that I don’t know about the ubiquitous presence of illegal immigrant labor in the industry, it might be a good thing to honestly address how we got here, and why - deep down inside - your hand-wringing about it isn’t very convincing.

The industry created this problem by basing its entire model around this labor pool - and you’re complaining that now there’s no other way to stay viable, for your business. You’ve fallen prey to the problem you helped to create and foster. So, what’s the solution? Close down the borders? Deport every suspected illegal that you can find? Or, maybe something else?

How is the current Administration helping to solve the problem? What is it about their approach that bodes well for your business? Could they possibly consider other options?

You are in a better position than most folks to honestly size up the causes that got us here and the actions that might be effective in moving forward. What do you want to do?

[_honorentheos]

You're not exactly what one might consider a good faith discussion partner Markk.

Bull, to your last sentence. You get mad when someone points out errors in the talking points that form your ideology.

In one breath you are stating that Trump is doing more, then in the next you accuse him, becasue of his actions, are making it worse. your post is all over the place. He is stuck dealing with a problem that is out of control, and is actually, right or wrong, pushing his agenda.

Where did I say more of being the same under Obama? I would like to see the context of what I wrote.

So you consider it being a good faith conversation partner when you can't seem to recall what you had written or review your own comments in this thread in context?

I'm curious, Markk, if you wouldn't mind filling in a few blanks for the sake of understanding how your mind works. Using my last post, starting with this statement -

"The idea Trump is doing more than any president is silly, but it's also at odds with your first comment above about everything just being more of what was happening under Obama."

According to the statement above, the MDB poster who made the claim Trump is doing more than any president is:___________

Claiming that these two paraphrased statements are at odds: "Trump is doing more than any president" and "Trump is doing essentially the same as Obama but having to deal with more immigrant" is comparing two statements made by MDB poster a)__________________ and MDB poster b)______________________. Please note that a) and b) could be the same MDB poster. I'm just trying to understand how you think.

Finally, please point out the contradiction in the claim, "In one breath you are stating that Trump is doing more, then in the next you accuse him, becasue (sic) of his actions, are making it worse."

I don't believe I said Trump is doing more, but instead said, "Trump has been attempting to find ways to get around the law that are new by seeing what will get past the courts, and he is asserting silly things regarding a physical border while he also points to barriers previously built or approved and takes credit for them which seem to be in line with how you view things." In more simple terms, he's looking for loopholes and taking credit for things he didn't do. But supposing what I said did amount to what you think it says, how is it a contradiction to say Trump is doing "more" and also "making it worse"? Ohhhh, yeah.

I have to say it doesn't speak well of your ability to engage in good faith conversation when you 1) can't recall what you said, 2) can't be bothered to refresh your own memory of what you said by reviewing your past posts in this thread, and 3) view using evidence to back up claims as a negative.

[_honorentheos]

Markk, I’m fully aware that there are millions of illegals. I’ve spent several decades living in both CA and AZ, and a fair amount of that time working with companies that depend upon illegal immigrant labor. And while it’s nice of you to avoid the point by pretending that my tongue-in-cheek post means that I don’t know about the ubiquitous presence of illegal immigrant labor in the industry, it might be a good thing to honestly address how we got here, and why - deep down inside - your hand-wringing about it isn’t very convincing.

The industry created this problem by basing its entire model around this labor pool - and you’re complaining that now there’s no other way to stay viable, for your business. You’ve fallen prey to the problem you helped to create and foster. So, what’s the solution? Close down the borders? Deport every suspected illegal that you can find? Or, maybe something else?

How is the current Administration helping to solve the problem? What is it about their approach that bodes well for your business? Could they possibly consider other options?

You are in a better position than most folks to honestly size up the causes that got us here and the actions that might be effective in moving forward. What do you want to do?

The real irony here is Markk is basically asking for protectionism and government intervention in a form of socialism. He doesn't like the way market forces and capitalism have lead to conditions where competition for labor has forced out inefficient workers in favor of more productive immigrant labor. “F” free markets, I say.

ETA: Now, I'm sure Markk will come back with the argument that immigrant labor isn't as productive because he sees them standing around and has to ride them to get work done, etc., etc. They're just willing to work for less. Yet, they seem to be providing more labor per dollar otherwise basic principles of economics would mean the more productive worker with legal working status would be able to be "more productive" by simple definition. Setting aside that isn't true (and acknowledging he hasn't said it yet), it's simply bad economics to assume that the labor market isn't responsible for pricing people out whose willingness to work for a given price is the product of anything other than the markets doing what markets do. Saying enforcement of immigration laws to keep cheap labor out of the market isn't a free market practice, it's protectionism. Saying most American citizens aren't willing to work for the same price as immigrants are willing to work for isn't a problem caused by markets but by social expectations. If it was impossible for a person to actually live on the wages being offered, no one would be willing to work for that amount and the markets would force prices upwards until enough people are willing to sell their labor for that price. It's basic stuff.

[_Jersey Girl]

What started our back and forth was your making this claim -

There is nothing different happening now under Trump that was happening under Obama, or Bush...there is just more of it.

I said that was wrong, you took issue and asked for evidence. I provided evidence that the way Trump was handling things was also making things worse and then we ended up in a tail spin. I told you what I thought was an important and impactful immediate step - funding resources to get applicants through the process more expeditiously in accordance with the law. I'm not for so called open borders and don't know a single person who is. I have said before I supported the Obama era practise you might call catch and release because it complied with the law and was generally effective. But under Obama the process was extremely underfunded and it's worse than ever. Trump's policies discouraging asylum requests at ports of entry encourage dangerous desert crossings so your binary question about whether or not people are better off in poorly equiped overcrowded detention centers for long periods than attempting dangerous crossings is a misdirecting question. It's a version of the thread bare example of asking when a person stopped hitting their wife.

The idea Trump is doing more than any president is silly, but it's also at odds with your first comment above about everything just being more of what was happening under Obama. Trump has been attempting to find ways to get around the law that are new by seeing what will get past the courts, and he is asserting silly things regarding a physical border while he also points to barriers previously built or approved and takes credit for them which seem to be in line with how you view things. I won't hold out hope you'll offer much to clarify but rather just assert how everything is bad, Washington is the worst and politicians are just talk but but Trump is doing things so action is all you really wanted to see on the issue while ignoring what you've already said about the actions of past administrations. You're not exactly what one might consider a good faith discussion partner Markk.

Bull, to your last sentence. You get mad when someone points out errors in the talking points that form your ideology.

In one breath you are stating that Trump is doing more, then in the next you accuse him, becasue of his actions, are making it worse. your post is all over the place. He is stuck dealing with a problem that is out of control, and is actually, right or wrong, pushing his agenda.

Where did I say more of being the same under Obama? I would like to see the context of what I wrote.

You'd like him to repost your own comment? He did so and direct quoted you in the very post you are responding to here. It's right in front of your face.

[_Maksutov]

Bull, to your last sentence. You get mad when someone points out errors in the talking points that form your ideology.

Says the guy who is busted making up crap about p-hacking and responds:

Blah blah blah



You used to be smarter, Markk. Maybe your Q hat is on too tight.

[_honorentheos]

You'd like him to repost your own comment? He did so and direct quoted you in the very post you are responding to here. It's right in front of your face.

I get the impression he thinks I "p-hacked" his quote or made it up. By that, I imagine he doesn't recall saying it because in his mind he probably didn't actually develop the comment. It's a common conservative news trope to tell liberals who are upset at the conditions in the detention centers that Trump didn't build them and isn't responsible for the programs that put them in place. He regurgitated something he heard somewhere that he swallowed whole and puked back up with his own stomach juices having deformed it to fit his style of prose is all. He just used it in the context of a broader discussion and then tried to defend it with more "Bull!" exclamations and anecdotes as is his wont.

But it's on page two of this thread if he's interested.