"Are you on your period or something?" and other sexist remarks

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Res Ipsa
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Schmo,

You mentioned trying to be an ally of feminists. Being a good ally is hard, especially at first. But the practice of centering others instead of oneself can have a tremendous impact on how you view and treat others. Here is a section from one of the many, many online resources addressing how to be a good ally:
BOOTS & SANDALS: HOW TO HANDLE MISTAKES
Contributed by Presley Pizzo. Please credit Presley when referencing this section.

While mistakes are to be expected, what’s the best way to go about resolving them?

Note: Parts of this section were originally based on Kayla Reed’s (@iKaylaReed) tweet sharing her definition of what it means to be an ally. It’s another great definition that’ll help you follow along with this section!

Imagine your privilege is a heavy boot that keeps you from feeling when you’re stepping on someone’s feet or they’re stepping on yours, while oppressed people have only sandals. If someone says, “ouch! You’re stepping on my toes,” how do you react?

Because we can think more clearly about stepping on someone’s literal toes than we usually do when it comes to oppression, the problems with many common responses are obvious:
  • Centering yourself: “I can’t believe you think I’m a toe-stepper! I’m a good person!”
    Denial that others’ experiences are different from your own: “I don’t mind when people step on my toes.”
    Derailing: “Some people don’t even have toes, why aren’t we talking about them instead?”
    Refusal to center the impacted: “All toes matter!”
    Tone policing: “I’d move my foot if you’d ask me more nicely.”
    Denial that the problem is fixable: “Toes getting stepped on is a fact of life. You’ll be better off when you accept that.”
    Victim blaming: “You shouldn’t have been walking around people with boots!”
    Withdrawing: “I thought you wanted my help, but I guess not. I’ll just go home.”
In reality, most of us naturally know the right way to react when we step on someone’s toes, and we can use that to help us learn how to react when we commit microaggressions.
  • Center the impacted: “Are you okay?”
    Listen to their response and learn.
    Apologize for the impact, even though you didn’t intend it: “I’m sorry!”
    Stop the instance: move your foot
    Stop the pattern: be careful where you step in the future. When it comes to oppression, we want to actually change the “footwear” to get rid of privilege and oppression (sneakers for all!), but metaphors can only stretch so far!
Reacting in a fair and helpful way isn’t about learning arbitrary rules or being a doormat. When we take the politics out of it, it’s just the reasonable thing to do. Still, it’s hard to remember in the moment, because these issues are so charged in our society. As such, it may be helpful to reframe the situation so that you don’t feel defensive.

You may have noticed it’s easier to handle being corrected about something you didn’t know if you’re grateful for and even open to the opportunity to learn rather than embarrassed to have been wrong. Being able to let go of your ego is an incredibly important skill to develop.

Try starting with “Thanks for letting me know” to put yourself in a better frame of mind. If after you say that, you need to take some time to think about the situation, that’s fine, too. Just remember that this isn’t about changing the other person’s frame of mind. They’re allowed to be upset about being oppressed.
A couple tips: think of sexism as a thing people do, not a thing people are. Being told that something you said is sexist isn't a death sentence or an accusation of being a horrible, irredeemable person. If you didn't mean to say something sexist, then it's a mistake. Oopsie. Sorry. It's done. Like you said, you can't fix it if you can't see it. That means, if you want to fix it, you can't launch into self-defense mode when someone points sexist language out to you.

Also, allies don't expect cookies. I'm doing my best to be Lem's ally in this thread, very consciously and deliberately. And I don't expect anything in return. She can hit me with both barrels tomorrow in another thread, and I don't get to say "after all I did for you...." She owes me exactly nothing. Not a favor. Not a compliment. Not an acknowledgment. Not even a thank you. Being an ally is nothing more than trying one's best to be a decent human being. It's its own reward.

Last thing: forget about empathy. So what if you can't empathize with Lem or any other woman? You don't need to. Compassion will get you anywhere you need to go. I've been meaning to post about a book I recently read called "Against Empathy." Here's a column by the author: http://bostonreview.net/forum/paul-bloo ... st-empathy

Don't let an inability to empathize become a stumbling block. Compassion flows from the recognition that we are all human beings, with more in common than we realize. That's one thing I think the Buddhists are dead right about.

Give yourself some time to cool off, then go back and read your part of the thread with the tips on being a good ally in mind. Notice how quickly some of the participants in this conversation make it all about them -- centering on themselves instead of others. Notice how often the "problem responses" in the piece I quoted appear in the thread. Then see if that doesn't shift your perspective -- just a little.
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Some Schmo
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Some Schmo »

I honestly don't give a crap what you think, Lem. It's not about you being a woman. It's about you being an irrational human being.

Of course, that's easy for you to dismiss under the rubric of "sexism" so go nuts.
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Some Schmo »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:36 am
A couple tips: think of sexism as a thing people do, not a thing people are. Being told that something you said is sexist isn't a death sentence or an accusation of being a horrible, irredeemable person. If you didn't mean to say something sexist, then it's a mistake. Oopsie. Sorry. It's done. Like you said, you can't fix it if you can't see it. That means, if you want to fix it, you can't launch into self-defense mode when someone points sexist language out to you.
I wasn't defending the comment. I was defending Analytics. He's a smart guy, and I understood his explanation. I didn't think it was a great thing he said, but I understood what led to it. I don't think he was being unintentionally sexist. I thought he was trying to make a point and it misfired.
Also, allies don't expect cookies. I'm doing my best to be Lem's ally in this thread, very consciously and deliberately. And I don't expect anything in return. She can hit me with both barrels tomorrow in another thread, and I don't get to say "after all I did for you...." She owes me exactly nothing. Not a favor. Not a compliment. Not an acknowledgment. Not even a thank you. Being an ally is nothing more than trying one's best to be a decent human being. It's its own reward.
I wasn't looking for a cookie, nor was I looking to be attacked. I was just saying what was on my mind at the time.
Last thing: forget about empathy. So what if you can't empathize with Lem or any other woman? You don't need to. Compassion will get you anywhere you need to go. I've been meaning to post about a book I recently read called "Against Empathy." Here's a column by the author:

Don't let an inability to empathize become a stumbling block. Compassion flows from the recognition that we are all human beings, with more in common than we realize. That's one thing I think the Buddhists are dead right about.
You misunderstood my point as well (so maybe I wasn't as clear as I'd like). I was basically talking about male privilege, and how it's often tough to see your own privilege unless it's through the eyes of someone else.

I don't think the point would have been lost if I changed the subject, and said something like, "I'll never really know what it's like to be a black man. No amount of empathy will ever grant me the experience of their day to day lives. As such, sometimes, I can be thoughtless about that, but I'm trying to get better."
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Some Schmo »

By the way, Res, I don't even really care that Lem has misconstrued my comments. It's just that her assuming the worst about me (despite everything I've written here on the topic over the years) makes me think maybe I have some insight into Analytics' experience with her.
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Jersey Girl »

Okay what the hell is going on NOW? :roll:
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Analytics »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:55 am
I wasn't defending the comment. I was defending Analytics. He's a smart guy, and I understood his explanation. I didn't think it was a great thing he said, but I understood what led to it. I don't think he was being unintentionally sexist. I thought he was trying to make a point and it misfired.
On more than one occasion, on this forum I’ve said “Workers of the world, unite!” That is definitely a Marxist thing to say. But does saying it make me a Marxist? Not necessarily. In context, I said it in response to an asinine comment by a Trump supporter that didn’t deserve a serious response.
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Schmo,

By the time you entered the conversation, Lem and Analytics had resolved their differences and exchanged apologies. Why did you feel the need to defend Analytics?

It’s what men do in conversations about sexism. They make it about the men. They will endlessly dissect the remark in question to assure each other that it’s okay because the guy who made the remark didn’t mean to be sexist. And that’s how sexist language persists.

I don’t think it’s impossible to see your own privilege, but I’d agree it’s hard. Isn’t the lesson there to listen when someone points it out to you?
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Jersey Girl »

Analytics wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:25 am
Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:55 am
I wasn't defending the comment. I was defending Analytics. He's a smart guy, and I understood his explanation. I didn't think it was a great thing he said, but I understood what led to it. I don't think he was being unintentionally sexist. I thought he was trying to make a point and it misfired.
On more than one occasion, on this forum I’ve said “Workers of the world, unite!” That is definitely a Marxist thing to say. But does saying it make me a Marxist? Not necessarily. In context, I said it in response to an asinine comment by a Trump supporter that didn’t deserve a serious response.
I thought you already resolved the issue raised in the OP.
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Some Schmo »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:25 am
Schmo,

By the time you entered the conversation, Lem and Analytics had resolved their differences and exchanged apologies. Why did you feel the need to defend Analytics?
Because I don't think he's a sexist, and I didn't want to let that go unsaid.

Look, I understand your point, but not all situations dictate the same reaction. If I'm going to champion feminism, I'm going to do it in the face of guys who really are douche bags. I'm not going to have a conversation with Analytics because I doubt I'd tell him anything on the subject of which he's not aware. He knows he made a mistake.
It’s what men do in conversations about sexism. They make it about the men. They will endlessly dissect the remark in question to assure each other that it’s okay because the guy who made the remark didn’t mean to be sexist. And that’s how sexist language persists.
But that's not what I'm doing. I'm not saying it was ok just because he didn't mean to be sexist.
I don’t think it’s impossible to see your own privilege, but I’d agree it’s hard. Isn’t the lesson there to listen when someone points it out to you?
Of course, so long as the person pointing it out has credibility.
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Re: "Are you on your period or something?" a sexist remark made HERE.

Post by Jersey Girl »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:15 am

Go “F” yourself.

You post this long ass post condemning a fellow poster in a public forum with some intention.
It wasn't a long ass post. It was about I dunno, 3 sentences followed by an illustrative quote. She wasn't condemning a fellow poster on a public forum, she was condemning the conduct of said poster.

Are you trying to get people to dislike Analytics? You don't think he knew what he was saying when he said it? You want us to believe he's a sexist? You don't think every adult who read the conversation can determine for themselves whether or not the comment was sexist, or whether Analytics was being a sexist?
I think her objective was to get people to consider and discuss the conduct. On a board where there are something like 180 posters, 4 of which are female, it's probably not a bad idea to address the issue when it raises it's ugly head lest the lack of response send the message that this is the accepted norm. It's not unlike the issue of posters "outing" other posters. Should we just pass that by or address it? On a board where there is now virtually no moderation at all, sometimes it behooves us to step forward and tackle a thing when it happens.
Why did you start this thread?
I think she started this thread for the reasons above. She wanted to address the issue, decided not to derail the Terrestrial topic where it originated, and created a new off topic thread here in Off Topic. Where it belongs.
What the “F”? I'm pretty sure most people around here are familiar with and understand that the comment is sexist. This isn't a goddamn newsflash.
Lack of response again indicating a norm. Why don't you understand that?
Don't complain when people respond to your damned posts. If you don't want a response, don't say anything.
She did get responses. Some thoughtful, others not. Some joking, though most serious in nature. There was a conclusion here, you chose to rip the stitches out and she shouldn't respond to that. Got it.

You don't have to be female to exercise insight, Schmo.
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We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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