And then one day...

[_Chap]

If a little boy of mine had wanted to be treated as a little girl, or vice versa, then I would have adapted to that. No problem there. So far as I am concerned, that is a matter for the kid, me, their friends, and so far as necessary their school.

I think many parents would feel and act that way. Like most stuff about the kid's personal life, it should not be treated as material for flag-waving and photos on Facebook or whatever. In fact many kids start asking their parents to take down all those personal pix once they get old enough to realise the implications for their right to privacy (which when they are little they don't know they have).

That's where I differ from the lady in the picture. That picture was her choice, and out of line. And I think that amongst parents whose kids question their gender, she will be a very rare phenomenon.

When I was around four or five-years-old I would regularly play with a girl doll. I carried her around. Dressed her. Whatever. I ended up growing into a heterosexual male. No worries.

I have to wonder if I were born in this era, to a parent like those we're seeing in the news, if my mother or father, instead of letting me grow out of a phase, would use that as an opportunity to confuse me and place me on a path that leads to inevitable difficulties. It's one thing to be chill about your kid being a kid, and it's another to convince them they're not ok and they'd be better off as something else. It's definitely a problem when a parent does that.

- Doc

Your parents seem to have done it right. Keep kids at a kids level. If a five-year-old wants to wear a dress, let him. No need to take things further than he is capable of thinking of by asking him 'Would you like us to get the name on your birth certificate changed? Do you want to see a doctor to get ... changed' and so on.

If he gets older and still feels that way, which in the great majority of cases (like yours) he will not, then the problem may need to be addressed at a level suitable to his age. I'm glad I never had to deal with that.

[_Smokey]

When you and I die, we shall both be ... dead. There is no plausible evidence to the contrary, and plenty against it.

Do you think there is more or less evidence for the existence of God than there is for the theory that Otto Frank’s 13 year-old daughter wrote the Anne Frank Diary?

If, in bizarro counterfactual universe your ancient Hebrew war-god really does call the shots, then, as the Irish say 'the back of my hand to him'.

You know nothing about me or the God I worship. Sort yourself out.

[_Maksutov]

When you and I die, we shall both be ... dead. There is no plausible evidence to the contrary, and plenty against it.

Do you think there is more or less evidence for the existence of God than there is for the theory that Otto Frank’s 13 year-old daughter wrote the Anne Frank Diary?

If, in bizarro counterfactual universe your ancient Hebrew war-god really does call the shots, then, as the Irish say 'the back of my hand to him'.

You know nothing about me or the God I worship. Sort yourself out.

You admire William Pierce. That tells us all we need to know.

Tell us about the Day of the Rope. Try not to masturbate while you do so.

[_Doctor Steuss]

William Pierce helped me maintain my belief in a higher power. Science has yet to explain how a wet fart can take upon itself the human form.

Checkmate, atheists.

[_Chap]

You admire William Pierce. That tells us all we need to know.

Tell us about the Day of the Rope. Try not to masturbate while you do so.

Oh dear. I wish I had not heard about this person ...

Still. Pierce could probably spell 'semitic' correctly. There is that, at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

Code: Select all

The Organization raids the houses of all individuals who have been reported to be "race traitors" in some way (such as judges, professors, lawyers, politicians, journalists, entertainers, etc.), and white women who "defiled" their race by living with or being married to non-whites. It drags these individuals from their homes and publicly hangs them in the streets in Los Angeles in an event which comes to be known as the "Day of the Rope" (August 1, 1993). Most of these public executions are filmed for propaganda purposes.[10][4] The Organization has little use for most white "mainstream" Americans. Those on the left are seen as dupes or willing agents of the Jews, while conservatives and libertarians are regarded as mere businessmen out for themselves or misguided fools, because, the Organization states, the Jews "took over according to the Constitution, fair and square." Turner and his comrades save their special contempt for the ordinary people, who are seen to care about nothing beyond being kept comfortable and entertained.

The Organization then uses both its southern Californian base of operations and its nuclear weapons to open a wider war in which it launches nuclear strikes against New York City and Israel, initiates a nuclear exchange between the US and the Soviet Union, and plants nuclear weapons and new terrorist cells throughout North America. Many major U.S. cities are destroyed, including Baltimore and Detroit. While the United States is being engulfed in a nuclear civil war, governments all over the world begin to fall one by one, and violent anti-Jewish riots break out in the streets. After the nuclear weapons are launched against Israel, the Arabs take advantage of the opportunity and proceed to swarm into Israel, mostly armed with clubs and knives, and kill all of the Israelis. The governments of France and the Netherlands collapse, and the Soviet Union falls apart while it is seeing a surge in anti-Semitic violence. Meanwhile, the United States is put in a state of absolute martial law and transformed into a military dictatorship. When the United States government decides to launch an invasion of the Organization's stronghold in Southern California, Earl Turner is ordered to embark on a suicide mission; he flies a crop duster that is equipped with a nuclear warhead and destroys the Pentagon before the invasion can be ordered.

The novel ends with an epilogue that is written in the year 2099, which summarizes how the Organization went on to conquer the rest of the world and how all non-white races were eliminated. Africa was invaded and all of its black inhabitants were killed. The Puerto Ricans (described as a "repulsive mongrel race") were exterminated and Puerto Rico was re-colonized by whites. When China attempts to invade European Russia, the Organization launches a full-scale assault against it with nuclear, chemical, radiological and biological weapons which render the entire continent of Asia uninhabitable and rife with "mutants". In the United States, the last remaining non-white elements are hunted down, along with all of the individuals who are involved in organized crime (such as the Mafia). One of the last steps in the Organization's victory is its truce with the remainder of the American military's generals, who agree to surrender if the Organization swears not to harm them or their immediate families, an agreement which the Organization gladly accepts. Thus the epilogue concludes by stating that "just 110 years after the birth of the 'Great One', the dream of a white world finally became a certainty... and the Order would spread its wise and benevolent rule over the earth for all time to come."[4]

[_Maksutov]

You admire William Pierce. That tells us all we need to know.

Tell us about the Day of the Rope. Try not to masturbate while you do so.

Oh dear. I wish I had not heard about this person ...

Still. Pierce could probably spell 'semitic' correctly. There is that, at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

Code: Select all

The Organization raids the houses of all individuals who have been reported to be "race traitors" in some way (such as judges, professors, lawyers, politicians, journalists, entertainers, etc.), and white women who "defiled" their race by living with or being married to non-whites. . .

[SNIP!]

Code: Select all

. . . Thus the epilogue concludes by stating that "just 110 years after the birth of the 'Great One', the dream of a white world finally became a certainty... and the Order would spread its wise and benevolent rule over the earth for all time to come."[4]

Timothy McVeigh was a big fan. He even used to sell copies of the book at gun shows If I recall correctly.

[_Some Schmo]

You know nothing about me or the God I worship. Sort yourself out.

I'm certain the god details you provide would be totally convincing where the rest of the world has failed.

No cure for stupid.

[_Jersey Girl]

I agree with this. Who says mentally ill parents don't exist? No child should be given hormone treatments, gender reassignment surgery, or forced into a role they can't possibly comprehend. Their parents should be prosecuted for child abuse, and the children should be removed from the home.

I mean, look at Smokey. He's a young person and his thinking is absolute garbage. Why would we trust children to possibly understand or know the real, lasting effects of gender reassignment.

Anywhey. Here we are.

- Doc

Mentally ill parents certainly exist however, in many or most cases I think it's a mixture of ignorance and vulnerability to prompting transmitted via social media. Possibly some attention-seeking 15 minutes of fame stuff going on there as well. "Aren't we so special?"

If human parents would bother themselves to pick up a book on child development and learn about the human being they are raising (or if child development courses were mandated in each state) we wouldn't be having this conversation because ignorance would be displaced by knowledge.

[_Jersey Girl]

Dripping with insight again, I see. ;-) I just want to make a couple of connections in what you have written that will hopefully illustrate a point.

Or not.

When I was around four or five-years-old I would regularly play with a girl doll. I carried her around. Dressed her. Whatever. I ended up growing into a heterosexual male. No worries.

for what it's worth here is the connection I would like to make to your pretend/dramatic play and the heterosexual male that you are. You played with a girl doll, carried her around, you dressed her for the possible following reason:

You watched your mother or other women do it and initiated a play scenario in which you took on that role to practice what it felt like to be caregiver.

And...

You grew up to be a heterosexual male who fathered one or more daughters to whom you provided care giving.

See how that works? Young children engage in pretend play with purpose. They are practicing the roles, scenarios, and also working out emotions/relationship dynamics they see lived out before them by adults. They are practicing at LIFE.

I'd put you at either side of 4 years old. That is when symbolic thinking emerges and dramatic/pretend play emerges in earnest. It's part of your development as a child and without symbolic thinking as a milestone in your development you wouldn't have been able to begin to understand human roles and relationships, math and science concepts, and you would have never been able to learn to read.

In other words, every stage has a cognitive purpose that leads to the next.

I have to wonder if I were born in this era, to a parent like those we're seeing in the news, if my mother or father, instead of letting me grow out of a phase, would use that as an opportunity to confuse me and place me on a path that leads to inevitable difficulties. It's one thing to be chill about your kid being a kid, and it's another to convince them they're not ok and they'd be better off as something else. It's definitely a problem when a parent does that.

- Doc

Your comment about convincing a child that they're not okay is like a knife through my heart, Cam. I see the type of parents you are describing as setting their children up for an enormous task they are unable to summit.

Parents are susceptible to prompting by what they see in the news and on social media...anti-vaxxers comes quickly to mind. They are ignorant of their child's development which has always been a criticism/observation of mine. They spend more time studying their phone plans and electronic systems than they do the complex human beings they are raising.

I will take my soap box and fling it now...thanks for listening to whomever might have read this post.

[_Jersey Girl]

If a little boy of mine had wanted to be treated as a little girl, or vice versa, then I would have adapted to that. No problem there. So far as I am concerned, that is a matter for the kid, me, their friends, and so far as necessary their school.

I think many parents would feel and act that way. Like most stuff about the kid's personal life, it should not be treated as material for flag-waving and photos on Facebook or whatever. In fact many kids start asking their parents to take down all those personal pix once they get old enough to realise the implications for their right to privacy (which when they are little they don't know they have).

That's where I differ from the lady in the picture. That picture was her choice, and out of line. And I think that amongst parents whose kids question their gender, she will be a very rare phenomenon.

So far as I am concerned, you and Cam have made the most cogent and reasonable comments in these exchanges.

Right on all counts, Chap.

Whether the child is authentically transgendered, the child in the picture is being exploited without the personal power to choose. I believe in many or most cases like this the child is being influenced by the parent who is screwing with the child's self identity.