DiscussMormonism.com

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:01 pm

Freedom of choice arguments have long acknowledged there is a point where the decision to terminate a pregnancy is more impactful than a form of contraception. It would be damaging to reduce the argument to this degree. There is no abortion debate without a debate regarding personhood and when the developing human should be seen as a person which, by definition grants them rights that would be even scarier to reject, in fact more in line with Justice Thomas' position.

It's not that simple.

Do you remember being in the womb? Being born? Does anyone? Had I been aborted, I'd have never known it.

Does one fetus, that may or may not come to biological self-reliance, have more rights than potentially several live conscious people who can actually consider their personal situation and what would be best for everyone affected by the prospect of this fetus being born?

I go back to my home-invader analogy. If you invite someone over, the expectation is that you aren't going to shoot them. They are a guest, not a home-invader. You hope and expect your guests will behave themselves, and it's generally a positive experience.

But if someone comes into your home and threaten your lives, we all understand that isn't cool, and we don't have to put up with it. Thankfully, it doesn't happen that often, but it would be ridiculous to expect that nobody would defend themselves in this situation.

For some women, in certain situations (like a pregnancy from rape), this is a pretty apt analogy. Feeling threatened is feeling threatened.

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:19 pm

While the fetus is entirely dependent on the mother to live, I don't see how it has any rights. It's a fetus. It's sponging off the mother's womb and turning her life upside-down. It seems to me a prerequisite of any pregnancy is consent on the part of the mother who's being asked to lend her body to this process.

While the illegal immigrant is entirely dependent upon the taxpayer to live, I don't see how he has any rights. He's not a citizen. He's sponging off the taxpayers earnings and turning his society upside-down. It seems to me a prerequisite of any immigration is consent on the part of the taxpayers who's being asked to lend provide for his support and the support of his family.

I think it’s great Ajax has changed his tune on Brown people with regard to their right to life. He’ll be glad to know that while Hispanics make up “only” 18% of the population they had a whopping 21% of total abortions in the US last year. Now that abortions are severely restricted in, for example, Arizona where Hispanics had 41% of abortions, we’ll for sure see an explosion in Hispanic birthrates! Who knew Ajax and the GOP would welcoming a massive rate of increase in Black and Brown populations while White birth rates still won’t meet replacement levels, despite the abortion restrictions now in place? Very progressive, Ajax!

- Doc

Binger wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:26 pm

I understand abortion is legal in the United States and that the abortion laws are more liberal than most European countries.

Can a woman in Oklahoma get one at any time if she hasn’t been raped, or a victim of incest, or near death from her pregnancy?

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:19 pm

While the illegal immigrant is entirely dependent upon the taxpayer to live, . . .

Illegal immigrants never work for wages?

Some Schmo wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:50 pm

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:01 pm

Freedom of choice arguments have long acknowledged there is a point where the decision to terminate a pregnancy is more impactful than a form of contraception. It would be damaging to reduce the argument to this degree. There is no abortion debate without a debate regarding personhood and when the developing human should be seen as a person which, by definition grants them rights that would be even scarier to reject, in fact more in line with Justice Thomas' position.

It's not that simple.

Do you remember being in the womb? Being born? Does anyone? Had I been aborted, I'd have never known it.

Does one fetus, that may or may not come to biological self-reliance, have more rights than potentially several live conscious people who can actually consider their personal situation and what would be best for everyone affected by the prospect of this fetus being born?

That's the ultimate issue here. If you argue that up to the point of birth the mother should have a choice to end the pregnancy without question you are taking a stand on when personhood is recognized. Otherwise, you would be arguing for a person's choice to trump another person's right to life, all else being equal.

Are states that argue for zero exemptions potentially heading for legal challenges? I think so. The rational test for a law that would prioritize the life of a mother over that of an unborn child seems open to rejection by the courts which is where we are heading now. But who knows.

The reality is if the issue matters, the arena for arguing it is now in the voting booth.

canpakes wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:12 am

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:19 pm

While the illegal immigrant is entirely dependent upon the taxpayer to live, . . .

Illegal immigrants never work for wages?

Ajax is just thinking about all the tax dollars he gets from medical coverage of kids whose tax-paying illegal immigrant working parents don't have insurance because the system is like that. He has no coherent understanding of economics, clearly. It's an issue for the folks who feel conservatives are regularly ran off the board that they never stop and ask why conservative representation on the board is so ignorant of basic concepts.

But if someone comes into your home and threaten your lives, we all understand that isn't cool, and we don't have to put up with it. Thankfully, it doesn't happen that often, but it would be ridiculous to expect that nobody would defend themselves in this situation.

Tell that to Merritt Landry. The leftist prosecutors tried to put him away for life for shooting a home invader.

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:18 am

But if someone comes into your home and threaten your lives, we all understand that isn't cool, and we don't have to put up with it. Thankfully, it doesn't happen that often, but it would be ridiculous to expect that nobody would defend themselves in this situation.

Tell that to Merritt Landry. The leftist prosecutors tried to put him away for life for shooting a home invader.

Ajax is just thinking about all the tax dollars he gets from medical coverage of kids whose tax-paying illegal immigrant working parents don't have insurance because the system is like that. He has no coherent understanding of economics, clearly. It's an issue for the folks who feel conservatives are regularly ran off the board that they never stop and ask why conservative representation on the board is so ignorant of basic concepts.

If you're only human as long as you can contribute and survive on your own, I'd think a lot of us would be subject to extermination, not just a fetus which many of us believe is made in the image of God as is written in Genesis.

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:18 am

But if someone comes into your home and threaten your lives, we all understand that isn't cool, and we don't have to put up with it. Thankfully, it doesn't happen that often, but it would be ridiculous to expect that nobody would defend themselves in this situation.

Tell that to Merritt Landry. The leftist prosecutors tried to put him away for life for shooting a home invader.

Well, when Merritt ends up having an abortion in the wrong state, prosecutors will probably have an easier time realizing that penalty.