Can someone explain this to me?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_cinepro
_Emeritus
Posts: 4502
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 pm

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _cinepro »

Kevin Graham wrote:for what it's worth

http://mediamatters.org/video/2012/10/2 ... k-d/190932

Fox Military Analyst Counters Rest Of Network, Denounces "Second Guessing" On Benghazi Attack Response


It is the nature of political elections to do anything possible to make your opponent look bad. Obviously, there are Romney supporters who think that this issue will sway some votes their way (or away from Obama), so this reaction is playing around that conviction.

Whether they are right or wrong, and if right, whether it is enough votes to make a difference, only time will tell. I still think the whole swift boat/Bush reserve pilot dust ups in 2004 were the dumbest things I'd ever heard, but I'm not a campaign adviser (nor do I even live in a "contested" state).

The trickiest thing about foreign affairs is that you don't know what's going to happen in the future, so in situations like this, you're being judged based on how you react, and what you theoretically might have done beforehand. By both measures, I think Obama wasn't perfect, but it's within the realm of expectation for me as to what a President can do before, and what he should do after.

And I try to give Obama the same benefit of the doubt that I would give a Republican President on these matters, and if a Republican President did the exact same thing, I wouldn't get too upset.
_mledbetter
_Emeritus
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:49 am

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _mledbetter »

Analytics wrote:According to the Wall Street Journal,

President Barack Obama was told in his daily intelligence briefing for more than a week after the consulate siege in Benghazi that the assault grew out of a spontaneous protest...

New details about the contents of the President's Daily Brief, which haven't been reported previously, show that the Central Intelligence Agency didn't adjust the classified assessment until Sept. 22.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 32288.html

The CIA was wrong, the White House relayed to the American people what it learned from the CIA, and right-wing spin-masters have been trying to portray this as the president blatantly lying in order to...to what? As if it would somehow be advantageous to the president to blame this on crazy Muslim demonstrators rather than crazy Muslim terrorists? Their conspiracy theory doesn’t make sense, which is what motivated the OP.


That wouldn't be the first time an administration has blamed the CIA for their problems.
As more information comes out on this, it's looking worse and worse for the administration.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/26/cia-operators-were-denied-request-for-help-during-benghazi-attack-sources-say/

I don't know if he lied or not. I just think this is looking worse with every new bit of information that comes out.
┏(-_-)┛┗(-_- )┓┗(-_-)┛┏(-_-)┓
_Analytics
_Emeritus
Posts: 4231
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _Analytics »

mledbetter wrote:That wouldn't be the first time an administration has blamed the CIA for their problems.
As more information comes out on this, it's looking worse and worse for the administration.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/26/cia-operators-were-denied-request-for-help-during-benghazi-attack-sources-say/

I don't know if he lied or not. I just think this is looking worse with every new bit of information that comes out.

Do you realize how schizophrenic you look? You say the administration is blaming the CIA for their problems. This implies you don’t think the CIA is part of the administration, right? In your world view, it’s looking worse and worse for the administration. According to your source, “the CIA chain of command” denied the request of its own operators to assist. How does the fact that the CIA told its people not to help exonerate the CIA and impugn the administration?
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

_mledbetter
_Emeritus
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:49 am

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _mledbetter »

Analytics wrote:According to your source, “the CIA chain of command” denied the request of its own operators to assist. How does the fact that the CIA told its people not to help exonerate the CIA and impugn the administration?


Petraeus denies this.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/petraeus-throws-obama-under-bus_657896.html

Again, it looks worse and worse the more information comes out about this. It shows a weak administration who panicked when this attack went down. There's nothing schizophrenic about my making that observation. When the left-wing spin-meisters who control most of our media (80 percent vote democrat after all) are doing everything in their power to cover up for this President, then yes, it can be a little difficult to come to the truth on these matters. It wouldn't be made as big a deal as it has been if this President wasn't going around pinning all of this reelection hopes on his foreign policy record. This set of circumstances doesn't help his argument.
┏(-_-)┛┗(-_- )┓┗(-_-)┛┏(-_-)┓
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

mledbetter wrote:Again, it looks worse and worse the more information comes out about this. It shows a weak administration who panicked when this attack went down. There's nothing schizophrenic about my making that observation. When the left-wing spin-meisters who control most of our media (80 percent vote democrat after all) are doing everything in their power to cover up for this President, then yes, it can be a little difficult to come to the truth on these matters. It wouldn't be made as big a deal as it has been if this President wasn't going around pinning all of this reelection hopes on his foreign policy record. This set of circumstances doesn't help his argument.


Or it could be that the Right Wing media freaks invented a scandal that has no merit and the only way they can keep it afloat is by complaining about another perceived boogeyman, the "Liberal Media"? After all, what are you going to do when Conservatives suggest this thing is being blown way out of proportion? Are they wolves in sheep's clothing or something?

The fact is the Right Wingers, especially Romney, jumped to conclusions from the beginning in a desperate attempt to politicize this tragic event, and as more information comes out, the dumber they look. And the more their initial conspiratorial speculations are shown to be just that. I mean now you're left with complaining about yet another conspiracy about a perceived influential power in the "Liberal media." You haven't really addressed most of the facts that have been outlined above. I mean are you going to say FOX News' own military analyst and Condoleeza Rice are part of the "Liberal media"?

Like many of the conspiracies fabricated by the Right, this one simply has no wind behind it. Once you get past all the emotionally charged rhetoric provided by FOX and Friends and the litany of Right Wing blogs, the dust settles and the facts become clearer. This thing never had legs outside the Right Wing media to begin with. They have a history of inventing scandals that turn out to be much ado about nothing. For me, this thing was dead in the water from the moment Romney went on TV and accused the President of "apologizing for American values," when he did no such thing. And then Romney's classic blunder in the debate where Romney proved he runs an incompetent campaign as it was too lazy to fact check an easily verifiable accusation; that he never called it a terrorist attack, which was immediately interpreted to mean the White House "painstakingly avoided" calling it that "for weeks." Turns out he did call it that. Case closed. Credibility for these speculation-based attacks have been shot out of the water, so why do we need to keep entertaining them?

From that point on, the Right has desperately been trying to take focus off of Romney's idiotic remarks by telling everyone, with bombastic certitude, that Obama was in some way responsible for these attacks and that he was too lazy or uncaring to do anything about them. You see this crap on FOX News every day and every morning I listen to Neil Boortz spew the same BS, blaming Obama for literally KILLING those people. So I don't see how anyone can complain about the myth of the "liberal media" and all its supposed power, when the tyrants of propaganda clearly hail from the Right. The Left has stuck to the facts and left the opinion-based speculation on the back-burner, while the Right Wing media has been trying to spin this thing to benefit Romney, anyway they can.

I just don't buy this myth of the liberal media influencing people in any meaningful way, at least not to the degree you suggest. The Right Wing media indoctrinates people to such an unprecedented degree that it is ironic when I hear these folks complain about such a thing. They have back to back to back radio talk shows that last all damn day on AM (750) and now FM (95.5) stations, and most people I know in Atlanta listen to these shows religiously. In the car or at work, they can always find a way to listen. My parents DVR FOX NEWS when they aren't home and then watch it later while eating popcorn. I'm crap you not! This is what their entire lives are based around. It defines them. They are proud about their status as Republicans who they envision to be honorable, hard working, self-responsible people, as opposed to thei mythical perception of the "other" (Liberal), who is a loathed moocher who wants others to pay for his/her lifestyle. They represent anti-American parasites who must be eradicated. That's how simplified they see things, and it is all thanks to the Right Wing media.

It has allowed them to justify their hatred and bigotry, because misery loves company. My step Day refers to Hannity as simply "Sean", as if he were best buds with him or something. It is really pretty damn scary, especially for me, because they've allowed this religion of Right Wing politics to consume them, justifying their hatred of minorities, like my wife, and as a result they have literally no relationship with their first born son anymore, or their grandchildren. They were never like this before until they engaged in the worship of George Bush and Right Wing media.

And I was there from the beginning when their indoctrination began. I saw how it unfolded and what the results have become. Ten years ago they only watched FOX on occasion and my Mom was an avowed Democrat. My Step Dad was a moderate of sorts; he was registered Republican but voted for Gov Zell Miller (Democrat). Gradually, I noticed a trend as they started watching more and more of FOX. Eight years ago when FOX kept telling people they were being brainwashed by a liberal media, my parents decided they'd stop getting the Atlanta Journal and Constitution because they said it was "too liberal." Before that time they read it regularly on a daily basis.

It all came to a head when Obama was elected, and my step father screamed at the top of his lungs, "NIGGER" when FOX News announced Obama had won the 2008 election. Their contempt for minorities is obvious to anyone remotely familiar with them. You can't take them anywhere without them going on long winded political rants about how the country is on the edge of communism because of Obama. Not that either of them could name a single example of communism anywhere in the world. Thanks to FOX, to their minds all Latin minorities are disgusting humans who should just stay in their own countries. Thanks to FOX, they believe they are the cause for everything bad in our country, from rising health care costs to the housing bubble. My Mom suddenly pretends to be an expert on all things related to the economy and politics, and she spends all day and night posting Obama slurs on Facebook. Relaying photoshopped racist images of Obama and his family. She deleted me from her friends's list a year ago simply because I posted something that indicated I supported Obama. That's the power of Right Wing media! That's the difference! It doesn't just shower us with baseless spin and opinion, it convinces people that we must accept that opinion as well, even if it means distancing yourself from family members who disagree. It divides the country in half, just as Romney did in his 47% speech. You're either part of the solution or you're the problem.

You see, for them, it is personal. You're either a Republican or you're not a real American. It isn't just a coincidence that Hannity rewards all of his supporting callers with "you're a great American" and refuses to say that to those who disagree with him. This has an indoctrinating effect. FOX tells them you can't reason or even speak to Liberals because it is almost as if they are less than human. Just listen to Ann Coulter rail on and on about this crap, psychoanalyzing the "Liberal Mind." You're just supposed to take what they say on blind faith, and people gladly do it. My Step Dad has never fact-checked a single thing in his life, but he gladly accepts their indoctrination because they play to the desires of bigots and racists who naturally want to believe many of the things they preach. Blaming minorities for all our woes, in some form or another. A classic example was the way FOX blamed the housing crisis on minorities, saying the big bad government "forced" banks to give loans to minorities who were too lazy to pay their bills. To this day my Mom and Step dad tell people this as if it were an article of faith. Of course this myth was blown out of the water years ago, but they aren't interested in facts that disrupt their alternate reality, and creating an alternate reality or parallel universe for the deluded, is precisely what FOX News and the Right Wing media does for people. Whenever we had Brazilain family visit us my parents would tell them things like "The primary difference between Republican and Democrat is that Democrats are lazy people who want others to work for them whereas Republicans want to work for themselves and earn their keep." And virtually every Facebook friend I have on my list is constantly spewing the same kind of simplistic, reductionist dichotomy as if it were an established law of the Universe.

So when their BS is refuted, oftentimes the only response we see is a complaint about how the evil Liberal media has spun everything so that no one can see the "truth." This is just another religion, very much like Mormonism, where facts are just a nuisance and loyalty to the tribe and the tribal doctrines are paramount.
_mledbetter
_Emeritus
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:49 am

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _mledbetter »

Kevin Graham wrote:Long rant about racist republicans.


No offense, Kevin, but I haven't addressed everything that you have posted because you post A LOT, and your posts are long. :)
Maybe I'll have to bow out of this conversation just for the fact that I don't have the time to address everything you have posted. I have a full time job, a new baby, and other hobbies that I much more prefer.

I will just say this. I'm a bit disappointed in one thing that I'm sensing from you and Analytics in this discussion. This idea that this isn't a big deal or that it has been blown way out of proportion. We have an American diplomat who was murdered on what was essentially American soil. That hasn't happened since 1979. The diplomat represents the office of the president directly. It's as if the president himself is under attack if you attack one of these guys. It's as if America herself is attacked if you attack one of our embassies. This is no small deal. I know that we are a big country and feel safe behind our borders while better men than both of us risk their lives protecting our borders, so we forget that these things are a big deal. However, to the people who did this, they see this as a really huge deal. To the people who serve and risk their lives in the intelligence community, this is a huge F'ing deal.

As far as the information coming out every day: This isn't even a he said she said thing anymore. This is a he said, everyone else said situation, and you guys seem hell bent on defending your guy's actions to the end. You're acting no better than those guys who defended Bush during Abu Ghraib, or when there were no WMD's found in Iraq, or when Halliburton was ripping off the tax payers with their shady contractor deals. It's the same thing. There's no difference here. This guy lied, or at least it now appears that way. I've read the speech and he came across fine to you guys, I'm sure, but he came across as a huge pussy to our enemies in the Middle East. His reference to this being a "terrorist attack" was so vague it's almost not worth mentioning. He was apologizing. Maybe to a spin-meister it can be seen as a mention, but to our enemies it was pure weakness.

Regarding how this thing went down, we now know that we had CIA operatives who went to help at the embassy despite orders to stand down (supposedly), but who expected help to arrive when they had done their duty and none arrived. We have people on the ground telling one story and the administration telling us something else. We have the director of the CIA telling us one story and the administration telling us something else. We have emails from the state department telling us one thing and the administration telling us something else. We now know that the State Department, and most likely the White House watched this thing actually unfold in real-time. They knew that this wasn't just a spontaneous riot because of some stupid internet video.
Sure, I guess you could spin this all day long because every president builds around himself plausible deniability so you can never directly link him to any of the incompetence that went down, but where does the buck stop at the end of the day? Please remind me. This is a major screw up and the fault will always fall at one person's doorstep. He screwed up. Just admit it, or you guys come off as pure partisans. I would respect that. Don't worry, I'm not convinced that this would make him a terrible president. It just shows that he made a big mistake, so you wouldn't be giving up that much ground and would go a long way to convincing me that you're not both hell bent on defending a guy instead of getting to the truth.

And Analytics, what exactly is your point? The administration isn't at fault because it was the CIA giving bad intel, but the CIA is part of the administration, so it's really the administrations fault? Huh? Help me out with that one, please.
┏(-_-)┛┗(-_- )┓┗(-_-)┛┏(-_-)┓
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I'm a bit disappointed in one thing that I'm sensing from you and Analytics in this discussion. This idea that this isn't a big deal or that it has been blown way out of proportion. We have an American diplomat who was murdered on what was essentially American soil. That hasn't happened since 1979. The diplomat represents the office of the president directly. It's as if the president himself is under attack if you attack one of these guys. It's as if America herself is attacked if you attack one of our embassies. This is no small deal. I know that we are a big country and feel safe behind our borders while better men than both of us risk their lives protecting our borders, so we forget that these things are a big deal. However, to the people who did this, they see this as a really huge deal. To the people who serve and risk their lives in the intelligence community, this is a huge F'ing deal.


Well you're not understanding what we said. No one said it isn't a big deal that the consulate was attacked and people were killed. What I'm saying is that the outrageous criticism, mostly fabricated by the Right Wing media, is being shown to be based on speculative nonsense from start to finish, and it is they who are trying to blow this out of proportion just so they can politicize this tragedy. You're just relaying the same nonsense with a clear intention to see evil doing no matter what the evidence suggests. Take for example this General recently debunking the FOX News attempt to say much of the same stuff you're asserting now.

And then Geraldo Rivera goes off on another FOX pundit for misleading the American people on this issue. Oh, and FOX's Juan Williams accuses his own network of "deliberate misrepresentation" on this matter. The cooler more reasonable heads on FOX are actually biting back at the agenda of their entire network. So you can't just say we're all a bunch of biased leftists who are making excuses for Obama's action. We flat out reject your assertions about what his actions are in the first place. Your own media circus on the Right is collapsing in on itself as more and more reasonable Republicans come to realize what these folks are really doing. They are politicizing a tragedy and then trying to spin the situation in a way that makes some of the most outrageous accusations against Obama. They know they don't even have to prove them true, all they have to do is assert them and the intended damage has been done as the media focus has shifted away from Romney's lies and idiocy.

As more information comes out, the more we know. We know for example, that the attackers based some of their justification on that anti-Muslim video you insist had nothing to do with the attacks. The problem is the Right Wing media is only interested in any "information" no matter how credible, that can be used to attack this administration, and they do so only to score political points to help get their man elected. That's it. Any refuting points they intentionally ignore and that leaves their devoted audience in a state of ignorance. It is despicable.

As far as the information coming out every day: This isn't even a he said she said thing anymore. This is a he said, everyone else said situation, and you guys seem hell bent on defending your guy's actions to the end. You're acting no better than those guys who defended Bush during Abu Ghraib, or when there were no WMD's found in Iraq, or when Halliburton was ripping off the tax payers with their shady contractor deals. It's the same thing. There's no difference here. This guy lied, or at least it now appears that way. I've read the speech and he came across fine to you guys, I'm sure, but he came across as a huge pussy to our enemies in the Middle East. His reference to this being a "terrorist attack" was so vague it's almost not worth mentioning. He was apologizing. Maybe to a spin-meister it can be seen as a mention, but to our enemies it was pure weakness.

So now your left with psychoanalyzing what's going on in the minds of everyone else, including our "enemies." Good grief, Matt. You've really got to expand your reading on this subject to something more than the vicuious Right Wing blogs.
_mledbetter
_Emeritus
Posts: 280
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:49 am

Re: Can someone explain this to me?

Post by _mledbetter »

Kevin Graham wrote:...right-wing media is evil...I know because left-wing media tells me so...


Reading George Soros' Media Matters and complaining about evil right-wing media does not count as expanding your reading. Almost all of your quotes and links you provide come from Media Matters. If all you did was read Guns and Ammo I'm sure you would be convinced that Obama wanted to take all of your weapons.

Also, I do plenty of reading, thank you.
┏(-_-)┛┗(-_- )┓┗(-_-)┛┏(-_-)┓
Post Reply