D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementation

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_Analytics
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Analytics »

bcspace wrote:
Obamacare "forces" people to buy health insurance in the same way that the home mortgage deduction forces people to take out a mortgage. If you take out a mortgage or buy health insurance, you get a moderate tax break. If you don't take out a mortgage or buy health insurance, you don't get the tax break. That's it.


Apples on oranges by your own words. One doesn't have a choice to buy health insurance anymore.

In what way do they not have a choice? Are you implying there are criminal penalities for not purchasing insurance? Or are you implying that he's going to use Jedi Mind Tricks to make us purchase it?

Section 1501 of the Affordable Care Act clearly says that you have a choice; you can purcahse health insurance, or you can pay a penalty--your choice.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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_EAllusion
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _EAllusion »

A subsidy that is a selective tax break is another way phrasing a special tax on anyone not engaging in what is being subsidized. What kind of conservative are you BCSpace?
_Droopy
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Droopy »

Analytics wrote:
Section 1501 of the Affordable Care Act clearly says that you have a choice; you can purcahse health insurance, or you can pay a penalty--your choice.



Support and vote for the approved political party or go to Siberia.

Your choice.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

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_Analytics
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Analytics »

EAllusion wrote:A subsidy that is a selective tax break is another way phrasing a special tax on anyone not engaging in what is being subsidized. What kind of conservative are you BCSpace?

Exactly. It isn't that hard of a concept, is it?

To put this into some perspective, I save about $3,000 a year on taxes because I have a mortgage; if I pay off my house, my annual tax bill will go up by $3,000. Does that mean the government is forcing me to have a mortgage?

In contrast, the penalty for not having health insurance will eventually be $750. So, the government is putting about four times as much pressure on me to live in a leveraged house than it is putting on me to be insured.

If we're all for freedom from being forced to do things by the government, we should be four times as upset at the "mandate" to have a mortgage than we are at the mandate to have health insurance. And given that having a mortgage isn't necessarily a good idea and having health insurance is, we should be even more upset than that.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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_Tarski
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Tarski »

Droopy wrote:
Tarski wrote:
Yes, it is all about maximizing profit and nothing to do with helping people or anything else Christlike. The whole Mormon church is likewise merely proceeding in such a way as to maximize profit. It is a business with as much heart and soul as an ATM machine. Money changers.


Take both your economic illiteracy, your soaring left-wing pseudo-moral pomposity, and your insufferable hypocrisy, and shove them where bodily processes best left unmentioned take place.

You are the king of moral pomposity (just the pomposity part really). Unfortunately, it is not match by anything resembling morality which you limit to quibbles about sexual matters. You are more devoid of intellectual honesty than anyone I have ever encountered.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Droopy
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Droopy »

Analytics wrote:
Do you really not see the fallacy in your logic? I’m sure you must, but I’ll play along, just for fun. Your fallacy is this: your argument is based on the idea that the government reducing your tax liability by $5,000 is inherently different than the government sending you a $5,000 check. Sure, one is a “transfer” of cash, but that transfer of cash is worth no more nor less than the reduction in the tax liability. If a $5,000 reduction in a liability is worth the same as a $5,000 check (and believe me, it is), then whether it is a “transfer” or a reduction in a liability is irrelevant.


Its monetary worth has nothing whatsoever to do with my main argument. There are several major problems with all of this that could make for endless argument into the wee hours, but to cut to the chase, the primary problem here is framing a targeted tax cut to an individual as a subsidy to the commodity or service the individual uses the retained funds to buy. Its value is immaterial. The use of those funds is a purchase, or exchange of property between the individual and the insurance company. Nothing has been "subsidized" by the government as the government does not own the money represented by the tax cut in the first place. It may dictate the purpose for which that money must be used, but that does not amount to a subsidy, only to a command to purchase according to government decree.

If the government reaches into its piggy bank and pulls out some of Analytic's money and transfers it to me to buy health insurance, it is now technically subsidizing my insurance with government (yours, in this case) funds.

Further, the economic dynamics implied by your argument are just another socialist camel's nose under the tent, which can be easily seen if we take your claims to their logical conclusion.

If there is no difference whatsoever in the government giving me $5,000 of other people's money (or taking my own and purchasing in my behalf) to buy health insurance, and mandating that I buy a $10,000 policy, or, alternatively, cutting my taxes by $5,000 so that I can add the $5,000 saved in taxes to my net earnings to spend on the $10,000 policy, then there is no difference whatsoever between the state taxing me at a 99% rate and then sending me a PLE (personal living expense) card that, like an EBT card, allows me to spend government money equal to my gross earnings, on what I need to live, and cutting my taxes by 99% and then mandating, on pain of massive fines, what I use the funds to buy across a broad range of goods and services.

The economic, political, and moral derangement of that should be obvious to anyone but a committed leftist.

There is no real difference between a $5,000 reduction in a liability and a $5,000 payment in cash—none whatsoever. You are using the word “subsidy” in an artificially restricted sense.


I'm using it as the dictionary defines it and as it is used commonly in political discourse.

But this implies that there is something inherently different between two things that are worth exactly the same.


You mean the number of the denomination on the bank notes? No, there's no difference at all. In the incentives, economic behavior, and political implications of the political and economic control of those banknotes, and of the choices and behavior of the individual, there are tremendous differences.

Free-market economics is based on the concept that people are rational.


Bosh. Free-market economics is based on the concept that people are self-interested. Some economic decisions are rational, and some are purely subjective and irrational.

“Simply not collecting the $5,000 at all” is what causes our tax code to be so complex, which results in citizens paying $140 billion dollars and spending 7.6 billion hours to file their taxes.


This is utterly bizarre. What you have just claimed is that the reason the U.S. tax code is nearly seven times longer than the Bible is because compliance costs go up as less tax is collected. By this argument, at a zero income, payroll, and corporate tax rate, compliance costs would soar and H&R Block would be doing record business.

Free market economics is based on the premise that people are rational. If they are, then the incentives are identical.


And a substantial portion of your argument goes into the wastebasket right here. They are rational but also self-interested, and they respond to incentives and to perceptions of the relative value or worth of things based upon perceptions of economic risk and need. When they become decoupled from the actual cost of goods and services, or when they are forced to purchase goods or services they otherwise, as rational and self-interested economic actors, they would defer or avoid altogether, the nature of their economic decision making has been altered and this will have effects throughout the entire economy.

Dude! Did you forget which position you are arguing? You are supposed to say that direct subsidies have these negative effects, but tax deductions don’t!


The real problem here is the federal government forcing private citizens to buy things that have no bearing on the protection or guarantee of the rights of their fellow citizens.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Darth J
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Darth J »

bcspace wrote: Obamacare actually does this by forcing everyone to buy. However, allowing consumers and companies to choose a PRA is not even close.


The individual mandate does not "force" anyone to do anything. It simply raises taxes on people who do not buy health insurance. That is why the Supreme Court held that the individual mandate in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act was not a valid exercise of the Commerce Clause, but it was valid exercise of Congress' power to tax. Nat. Fed. of Indep. Businesses v. Sebelius

You will of course remember Droopy's hilarious pronouncement of doom about the Supreme Court ruling that Congress can force us to buy things--exactly the opposite of what the Supreme Court held--because he overheard a misinformed rant about the Sebelius decision on talk radio. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24572&hilit=commerce

The Sebelius court held that Congress can increase taxes, but grant a deduction for those who purchase health insurance. There is no difference between what the individual mandate does and bcspace's belief that Congress should subsidize health insurance by allowing a deduction for taxpayers who buy health insurance.

I'm surprised that a staunch conservative like bcspace thinks the federal government should subsidize private economic transactions.
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote:The real problem here is the federal government forcing private citizens to buy things that have no bearing on the protection or guarantee of the rights of their fellow citizens.


Agreed. Please provide an example of the federal government forcing private citizens to buy things. The Supreme Court has already held that the individual mandate in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act does not do that, so maybe you have another example in mind?
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Darth J »

Analytics wrote:
Droopy wrote:There is no real difference between a $5,000 reduction in a liability and a $5,000 payment in cash—none whatsoever. You are using the word “subsidy” in an artificially restricted sense.



I'm using it as the dictionary defines it and as it is used commonly in political discourse.


Droopy, if a creditor writes off a debt you owe, can that creditor send you a 1099 so that the amount of your debt that was written off counts as taxable income for you for that year?

___Yes ___No
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Re: D-Industries Cuts Hours Ahead Of Obamacare Implementatio

Post by _Darth J »

Analytics wrote:
Droopy wrote:There is no real difference between a $5,000 reduction in a liability and a $5,000 payment in cash—none whatsoever. You are using the word “subsidy” in an artificially restricted sense.



I'm using it as the dictionary defines it and as it is used commonly in disingenuous political sloganeering.
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