The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_Markk
_Emeritus
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 am

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Markk »

Gadianton wrote:
Markk, in my post above which I admit may be a few sentences too long and I think others missed my point as well, I distinguish between stop-gap solutions for incidents and tackling broader environmental factors for problems. I do maintain media violence is "off the table" for the discussion of putting out fires -- for tackling incidents of gun violence directly. There is a 1 to 1 irrefutable causal connection between the presence of a gun and a mass shooting. The relation between violence in movies, music, media and video games and real violence let alone mass shootings has no clear connections, they *possibly* -- I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt -- are environmental factors that swirl and brew along with other factors until a "perfect storm" condition is triggered. We have to send firetrucks to fires (the incident) prior to dealing with the subset of potential factors such as arson psychology that contribute to the perfect storm (the problem). Perfect storms involve many variables that interact sometimes in counter-intuitive ways, and we must deal with incidents directly first. There obviously isn't a clear line in the sand between incident response and management and problem management, but incident response and management considers only the most direct variables, and THE most direct variable in this case is that a gun designed to kill a large number of people, did in fact, kill a large number of people.

I'm all for considering the possibility that violence in media contributes to the problem, I'm not agreeing that it does contribute -- there is just as much reason to believe violence in media and fantasy world help people avoid being violent in the real world. But while we're solving the horribly complex human propensity of violence, let's take away your guns.

That's the implicit message of the NRA when they advertise gun safes. It's a much longer discussion to understand how old kids need to be and what the proper level of gun education is, and how to deal with neighbor kids and their upbringing and on and on. You're not going to figure all that out let alone fix it any time soon, therefore, the bottom line is taking away the guns (putting them in a safe). The national discussion right now can be summarized by the opening sentences of that NRA ad for gun safes.


For me, and many, this is a cop out. People ignore the reason, to focus on a band aid, that in most cases will not do a thing (the AR-15) argument.

Billions upon Billions are spent every year on marketing and advertisement...Millions and Millions on research on how to get folks to buy their product. If one just throws out that movies, music, and social media (Y Tube as an example) as a possibility that leads folks to to things like this... again a cop out and are in denial.

We as a nation assimilate kinda like supply and demand does in our system. Too many are okay to throw our rights away for one freedom, yet would not dream of giving up a right for another. Prohibiting the 1st amendment is out of the question, just as the 2nd was years ago...but today it is an option.

And, I haven't thought this through, it just crossed my mind, but is the Media/Screen Actors Guild... the same as the NRA in being champions for protecting their respective rights?

I have been reading on prohibition (interesting google search)...and it really did work...suicides were down, alcoholism and related disease down (big city crime up)...but we as a nation chose we wanted to drink, more than not.

I have more on this point but need to run...more later, and thanks for the conversation.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Morley »

Markk, why is there such a difference in gun violence stats between Canada and the US? You didn't address this.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Kishkumen »

Morley wrote:Markk, why is there such a difference in gun violence stats between Canada and the US? You didn't address this.


Because Canadians aren't so damned crazy.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Maksutov »

Let's say it isn't guns. Let's say it's alienation. What do we do about it? What will it cost? How will we know when it is working?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Gadianton »

Suppose there are social reasons why Canadians don't have the gun violence problem Americans do and have similar enough access to guns. (I don't know anything about Canada's gun situation by the way so this is an illustrative, hypothetical example).

To show how the NRA's gun safe reasoning works:

Canadians are like the kids raised by responsible NRA members and Americans are like the next-door liberals who know nothing about guns and are crazy. The most direct solution for preventing an incident is to get rid of the guns (get a safe and lock them away). The stop-gap isn't to figure out how to better educate the liberals next-door and prevent them from viewing violent movies and video games that could contribute to an angry incident with a gun in reach.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Morley »

Bumping for a reply from Markk.
_Markk
_Emeritus
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 am

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Markk »

Morley wrote:Markk, why is there such a difference in gun violence stats between Canada and the US? You didn't address this.


Culture, population, drugs, inner city diversity..., so it is not the weapon using your argument.

Here is a interesting stat I am exploring...Honduras has 90 murders per 100K...worse in the world according to one website...and they have only 6 guns per 100K people.

The US has 100 gun per 100k...and while I don't know what the murder rate is per 100K in the US, it was not in the top 25 on the site below so it is under 17 per 100K if the site is accurate. Brazil is in the top 25, yet has like 900% less guns than the US.

This is a telling stat...is it not?
https://list25.com/25-countries-with-th ... the-world/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Morley »

Markk wrote:
Morley wrote:Markk, why is there such a difference in gun violence stats between Canada and the US? You didn't address this.


Culture, population, drugs, inner city diversity..., so it is not the weapon using your argument.

Here is a interesting stat I am exploring...Honduras has 90 murders per 100K...worse in the world according to one website...and they have only 6 guns per 100K people.

The US has 100 gun per 100k...and while I don't know what the murder rate is per 100K in the US, it was not in the top 25 on the site below so it is under 17 per 100K if the site is accurate. Brazil is in the top 25, yet has like 900% less guns than the US.

This is a telling stat...is it not?
https://list25.com/25-countries-with-th ... the-world/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated ... by_country


You suggest differences in "culture, population, drugs, inner city diversity" for differences in gun death statistics between the US and Canada. Then you change the subject to a comparison of homicide rates between the US and... wait for it... Botswana and Honduras. You're not even trying to have an honest discussion.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Morley wrote:You suggest differences in "culture, population, drugs, inner city diversity" for differences in gun death statistics between the US and Canada. Then you change the subject to a comparison of homicide rates between the US and... wait for it... Botswana and Honduras. You're not even trying to have an honest discussion.


:lol:
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Let's compare apples and apples Markk. The fact is the United States has both the highest murder rate and the highest rate of deaths by firearms among developed countries.

Here is a rundown of developed countries according to firearm deaths per 100,000. Notice that the great old USA is three times worse than the country in second place:

United States 10.16
Finland 3.25
Switzerland 3.01
France 2.83
Austria 2.63
Israel 2.09
Czech Republic 2.01
Canada 1.98
Cyprus 1.87
Slovakia 1.83
Belgium 1.82
Norway 1.75
Portugal 1.58
Greece 1.52
Sweden 1.47
Italy 1.31
Denmark 1.28
New Zealand 1.07
Germany 1.01
Australia 0.93
Ireland 0.80
Spain 0.62
Netherlands 0.58
United Kingdom 0.23
Iceland 0.07
Japan 0.06


And here is the murder rate per 100,000.

USA 4.88
Belgium 1.95
Canada 1.68
Finland 1.60
France 1.58
Israel 1.36
Cyprus 1.29
Sweden 1.15
Denmark 0.99
Australia 0.98
Portugal 0.97
United Kingdom 0.92
Iceland 0.91
New Zealand 0.91
Greece 0.85
Germany 0.85
Italy 0.78
Switzerland 0.69
Spain 0.66
Ireland 0.64
Netherlands 0.61
Norway 0.56
Austria 0.51
Japan 0.31
Post Reply