Why low birth rate in the US?

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_honorentheos
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _honorentheos »

moksha wrote:1. Later age of marriage
2. Availability of birth control
3. Abortion
4. Video games and late-night television
5. Restricted family size for enhanced quality of life purposes
6. Unaffordable single family dwellings
7. Gubbermint is putting something in the water to sap bodily fluids.

Speaking anecdotally, I honestly think people's attitudes have changed towards child rearing.

At the office I work at where there are +/- 40 mostly college educated professionals making solid incomes, there is a dramatic difference in terms of the relationships of those under 40 and those over 50. The few people in their 40's seem to be the transition group between these two largely dissimilar groups.

Those over 50 have all been married. All but one is still married to their only spouse to whom they were married before their 30's. They all have had multiple children with the exception of the one person who divorced and never remarried. He also happens to be the CEO and his relationship style today is much more similar to that of the under 40 cohort.

The under-40 cohort is the majority cohort in our office making up around 3/4 of the staff. About a third are married, a few are in committed partnerships with one engage to be married later this year, and the rest are single or in relationships that began within a year or so. Only one of the under-40 cohort married before the age of 25 and she is one of two who do not have at least an undergraduate degree. Of this group, two have two kids. The rest do not have any children. None of the couples who are not married have children together. I would estimate I've heard at least five of them state they will never have kids and even express disdain towards children and people who raise them. There is a real movement among some to make the lack of children a sign of responsible adulthood.

The 40 to 50 cohort is more diverse. There have been two 1st marriages this year, one being a guy who I guess decided it was time to settle down and the other a woman who had been in a long-term relationship. While she never said this, my impression from what she did say was that she was waiting for him to get comfortable with the idea of marriage. Neither have kids, and neither currently want them as they approach the point nature will bless and consecrate that decision. Another co-worker has been with his high school sweetheart for twenty years, married about fifteen of those, and has three kids under the age of fifteen. Two in this cohort are also married to each other and have one kid who is almost college-age. There are two single guys, one of whom is in a relationship that began within the last year but has made the decision to move in together. Neither have had kids. Another married a couple of years ago and had a kid about the same time. They were definitely sowing their wild oats before that and marriage seemed to come with having a kid. There is a bi-sexual guy with a partner with whom he lives. And then one couple without kids.

Subtracting out the 50+ cohort, if my office were representative we'd be far below replacement levels and it has more to do with lifestyle decisions than anything else.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _honorentheos »

Chap wrote:
honorentheos wrote:I don't know that focusing on paid maturity [Chap: typo for 'maternity'?] leave is doing the discussion any service, though. While I tend to agree it is a good idea but balk at suggesting it should be mandatory because its the sort of policy that would have ramifications big enough it would be irresponsible to cavalierly declare it should be so without real investigation ...


Who on earth is arguing that paid maternity leave should be 'cavalierly declared without real investigation'? Not me, certainly. That's why I posted a link to a paper that did some 'real investigation' earlier in the thread, as an example of the sort of work that needs to be done in order to come to a well-judged decision on a point like this one.

Yeah. But a study on the impacts of paid maternity leave on fertility levels isn't investigating much beyond that limited scope. It would be cavalier to use it alone to make policy.

honorentheos wrote:What is it about integrating with US and UK society that causes a sharp drop off in fertility if not cultural?


It is hard to distinguish meaningfully between the cultural and the economic, surely? A generation born in a country with much higher living standards than their parents' country of origin will want to live and raise their kids at a standard that their neighbours and workmates find acceptable. Unless they are very rich, that will make it very unlikely that they will feel happy about raising as many kids as they might have raised in their parents' county of origin at the living standards there prevalent. In some cases, they may simply decide that they can't afford to raise any kids at all.

If that happens frequently, a government has the choice between either accepting an ageing population, with all the problems that flow from that, or looking hard at ways to make it easier for people to take the decision to have at least some kids.

Rich people don't have more kids than poor people. There's even a paradox described for that. So, again, it seems you are not really looking at the issues involved so much as riding a hobby horse regarding the US not being like the UK. You found something that serves that purpose and you've bought the ticket for it to place. And that's fine. But that's all it is.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Chap
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _Chap »

At this point I think further discussion will involve too much repetition of points already made to be worth the time and energy.

I am therefore content for our readers to decide which one of us is making out a more reasonable position on this issue.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_honorentheos
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _honorentheos »

Chap wrote:At this point I think further discussion will involve too much repetition of points already made to be worth the time and energy.

I am therefore content for our readers to decide which one of us is making out a more reasonable position on this issue.

:)

It's good to have you back, chap.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_ajax18
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _ajax18 »

I do think if a society wants to increase birth rates, making the rest of society share some of that cost is a great idea.


Sounds like a welfare attitude to me. Why not do like Latin America and force other societies to share in the cost?
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_aussieguy55
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _aussieguy55 »

Fewer births means in the future fewer persons to serve in the army fewer college graduates, fewer employees.
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_Themis
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _Themis »

ajax18 wrote:
I do think if a society wants to increase birth rates, making the rest of society share some of that cost is a great idea.

Sounds like a welfare attitude to me.

Not really. Most people usually end of having children, but they are usually young with little money to pay for a decade or so for things like day care. Having everyone pay spreads out the cost over a lifetime instead of all in about a decade. Those who don't have children still depend on those who do for their quality of life, so should be expected to contribute.
42
_ajax18
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _ajax18 »

I'm in favor of higher birth rates but the responsibility falls upon those whose right it is to choose to have children or not. If society is responsible then society should have some say in family planning. I'd start with outlawing teen pregnancy.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _Res Ipsa »

ajax18 wrote:I'm in favor of higher birth rates but the responsibility falls upon those whose right it is to choose to have children or not. If society is responsible then society should have some say in family planning. I'd start with outlawing teen pregnancy.


So what would you do with a teen couple when one of them gets pregnant?
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_ajax18
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Re: Why low birth rate in the US?

Post by _ajax18 »

I'd make people show proof of employment to bring a child into the world. It's already required for adoption.

There'd be some kind of deterrent to teen pregnancy. I wouldn't just write people checks for getting pregnant as teens like we do now
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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