The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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_Markk
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _Markk »

EAllusion wrote:Chemistry wise, I think what you want to avoid are too many player who need to be ball-dominant to function. Curry is good because he can spot up shoot as well as anyone ever. Harden isn’t because his offensive efficiency depends on him working the ball.

Players like Magic and James can be ball dominant or not depending on what the team needs.

Jordan is the only player I have who really needs the offense to flow through him at times, but that’s Ok because he’s still one of the most efficient offensive players ever to play and has a competitive spirit that would likely allow him to bend his game to the most effective sets. If he is a little too selfish, that’s the cost of the best defending shooting guard ever to lace them up. Prime Jordan shut down players like Payton like they were scrubs.

Ideally he’s just a much better Wade on this team. If Jordan gets too carried away with iso ball, pull him for the splash squad.



Magic is 5th all time assists, cut short with the HIV virus, and James is 18th and still active...both are top five ever players. They rebound and can score when the need to, they can play defense, and both can create a shot and play all 5 positions if needed. I am not sure what you are thinking. One of Lebron's biggest criticisms has been that he gives up the ball in key situations.

Curry is a pussy, he was whining in the playoffs because they threw a box and one against him and shut him down. He can't play defense and is a two position player. On my team who is he going to guard?

Your team is a team of great players, but the team I choose, I believe, would be great team.

Payton and Jordan had epic battles, while few can guard Jordan...Payton could, as could Miller, and Rodman. He never sat him down like a scrub. No one can shut Jordan down, but these guys, aside from Dumars and a few others, were maybe the best against him, ever. I think Bobby Jones would have been equally up for the challenge. I don't know how old you are but the 82, 83 Sixers were maybe the greatest team ever, and they swept my Lakers 4/0 in the finals. Bobby Jones like always was a stud. He was all defensive team like 8 or 10 years in a row. My point is you need defense to win...period.

Steph and Reggie Miller both have a 47% career FG% Reggie actually shot over 50% 4 times, which Steph has never done, and the both shot around 39-40% from three point line. But Reggie played defense, and was 4" taller, and is arguably one of the toughest players pound for pound to ever play, his only negative is that his sister was better than him.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _Markk »

Bret Ripley wrote:
Gary Payton
I love it ... some love for The Glove.

While doing some research for an idea for some entertaining match-ups (I was toying with Bill Laimbeer vs. Dennis Rodman just to keep the hockey fans interested) I discovered that Laimbeer played a Sleestak on the old 'Land of the Lost' series several years before he went on to play one for the Detroit Pistons.


I loved watching Payton...they had some good Seattle teams in the 80's and 90's . Remember Tom
Chambers, he was a stud...I can remember him dunking over people like no one else."White flight."

Also "Down Town Freddie Brown" he was so cool. I would like to see Seattle get another team.

How about Laimbeer against Jeff Ruland. Between Laimbeer and Ruland they probably have a combined vertical leap of 6 inches. It would be bloody.

LOL.. I had to look up Sleestak , I remember him now...my little brother loved that show...along with the Banana Splits. Thanks for the memories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMl6HnhFFIA
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_EAllusion
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _EAllusion »

Markk wrote:

Magic is 5th all time assists, cut short with the HIV virus, and James is 18th and still active...both are top five ever players. They rebound and can score when the need to, they can play defense, and both can create a shot and play all 5 positions if needed. I am not sure what you are thinking. One of Lebron's biggest criticisms has been that he gives up the ball in key situations.


Assists is not a measure of lack of ball dominance. Westbrook and Harden both consistently lead the league in assists and both control the ball a ton to be able to work. They need to dribble a lot in order to break someone down. This works for them - Harden more than Westbrook - but probably not at the rate you'd need when you're dealing with a team that can also score at will. Both players have so many assists because they hold the ball so much. If someone scores after getting a pass, it's likely coming from them because they always have the ball. If Westbrook spends 15 seconds of a possession breaking someone down, the slashes and kicks, that's potentially an assist for him. That's how he gets them. Both Magic and James have shown they can play by holding the ball a lot of the possession clock or not and their games don't depend on being ball dominant, so I'm less concerned about that. James and Magic both hold/held the ball a lot, but they both played in offensive systems that wanted them to do that.

When you have an all-time great at every position, you have to have players who mostly don't need to dominate the ball. This is because ball movement is better than dribbling when you are trying to get a guy open. There's room from drive and kicking - I'll take Michael Jordan to do that for me when I want it - but you mostly want a lot of motion and passing to get good looks for players who can score the ball. I want a clean look or an easy sky-hook every single trip.

Curry is a pussy, he was whining in the playoffs because they threw a box and one against him and shut him down. He can't play defense and is a two position player. On my team who is he going to guard?


I think you underestimate just how important Curry is to keeping defenses honest. In order to defend him on the Warriors, which does not have an all-time great player to pass to at every position, teams have to stretch their entire defense in such a way that everyone gets a lot easier looks. The reason they do this is because if they *don't* Curry is so automatic from 3 with a little space from very deep that he'll destroy them. He's altered the entire way the game is played. It's not that Curry can hit 3's. It's that Curry can hit 3's from incredibly deep with the kind of efficiency prior generations just couldn't.

I'll take his ability to do this for some worse defense. This forces opposing defenses to stretch to protect against him, thus giving hall-of-fame offensive talent easier opportunities to be open, or allows him to be very efficient from three. I'd like forcing that choice. If good-but-not great offensive players like Payton and Thomas abuse him, it's easy to sub him out. I doubt that's going to happen, though, in part because Thomas and Payton would likely have their driving game shut down because my front-court is freaking James, Garnett, and Jabbar. Those are some rangy, all-time defenders there.

Jabbar isn't remembered for his defense, but that's because his prime years came during the low-point of interest in the NBA and he is better remembered from his Laker days when he was still good, but way past his peak. Jabbar was a fluid, fast, monster defender in his prime.

Good offense beats good defense in basketball, though, and I'd rather have an offensive gauntlet on the floor. When you have players like Rodman on the floor, I'd use Curry to double someone else and just leave him open. Dennis Rodman being wide open at all times would probably still be decent in a normal NBA game, but I'm guessing that scoring 50% of the time isn't gonna cut it when playing the most efficient offensive team ever imagined.

Your team doesn't have enough 3 point shooting. 3 > 2. I'm even a little wary of my 3 point shooting maybe not being good enough from the starters, but that's why I loaded the bench up with it. I can easily sub into a package that puts the best 3 point shooters of all time at 4 of 5 positions on the court.

Ball movement -> 3 points being better than other forms of basketball is the key insight of modern basketball strategy.

Payton and Jordan had epic battles, while few can guard Jordan...Payton could, as could Miller, and Rodman.


I think you are confusing old Jordan with prime Jordan. Because old Jordan was still a phenomenal player in the mid-90's, it's easy to forget that his abilities were fading considerably at that point. I looked up their head to head's on basketball reference and Payton's numbers against him were not very good. His 1993 and before numbers make him look like he needs to be on the bench. Jordan straight killed him.

He never sat him down like a scrub.

He did so repeatedly. The stats don't lie on this one:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... i?id=9J1mG


Steph and Reggie Miller both have a 47% career FG% Reggie actually shot over 50% 4 times, which Steph has never done, and the both shot around 39-40% from three point line. But Reggie played defense, and was 4" taller, and is arguably one of the toughest players pound for pound to ever play, his only negative is that his sister was better than him.


Reggie Miller played closer to the basket. Curry's super-power is that he can play like a Reggie Miller much further out. This makes it harder to run down ball movement when he passes out of tight defense that far away from the basket.
_EAllusion
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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In isolation, I think Giannis is already a little better than Kevin Garnett was. They're both all-time great defenders. Garnett has the nod there for now. Giannis is a better passer. Giannis's transition and drive game is basically untouchable and is more advanced than Garnett at his best. Because of this, Giannis's numbers are noticeably more efficient than Garnett's.

The thing is, Garnett was a decent enough shooter that opposing teams at least tried to keep him honest, and Giannis is not quite there yet. Giannis's raw shooting numbers are actually comparable to Garnett's, but that's because teams dare him to shoot so he gets easier looks. If you're on the hall-of-fame team, you got to be able to drain any open looks you are given. I trust Garnett a little more to do this. All things being equal, Giannis is the better player, though.

Maybe after next year, we'll have to boot Garnett for Giannis. I like the idea of a defensively flexible, run-you-off the court freak at the 4 spot. You always want to be testing whether the opposing team can keep up.
_moksha
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _moksha »

Allstar Team (when they were all 22 years old)

Starting
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Tim Duncan
Elgin Baylor
Michael Jordan
Stefan Curry

Backups
Wilt Chamberlain
Karl Malone
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
John Stockton
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Markk
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _Markk »

Assists is not a measure of lack of ball dominance. Westbrook and Harden both consistently lead the league in assists and both control the ball a ton to be able to work. They need to dribble a lot in order to break someone down. This works for them - Harden more than Westbrook - but probably not at the rate you'd need when you're dealing with a team that can also score at will. Both players have so many assists because they hold the ball so much. If someone scores after getting a pass, it's likely coming from them because they always have the ball. If Westbrook spends 15 seconds of a possession breaking someone down, the slashes and kicks, that's potentially an assist for him. That's how he gets them. Both Magic and James have shown they can play by holding the ball a lot of the possession clock or not and their games don't depend on being ball dominant, so I'm less concerned about that. James and Magic both hold/held the ball a lot, but they both played in offensive systems that wanted them to do that.

When you have an all-time great at every position, you have to have players who mostly don't need to dominate the ball. This is because ball movement is better than dribbling when you are trying to get a guy open. There's room from drive and kicking - I'll take Michael Jordan to do that for me when I want it - but you mostly want a lot of motion and passing to get good looks for players who can score the ball. I want a clean look or an easy sky-hook every single trip.


Your nuts...almost all your players need the ball, That is why I chose roll player and specialist to compliment the main scorers. It does not matter who scores each time down, but that they do score. And you have to rebound, and limit turnovers.

Magic made a living out of feeding Kareem the sky hook, do you think Kareem just dribbled down and and did it on his own?

The difference between Lebron/Magic and Harden/Westbrook is...how many rings? You need a leader on the court, and they need to be unselfish...and Lebron and Magic are the two greatest ever..followed by Stockton and Isiah. I would even take a Dennis Johnson leading my stars.

Magic and Lebron can beat you in many ways...Steph needs to take 20 shots or more and needs get 30 plus to win.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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He did so repeatedly. The stats don't lie on this one:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... i?id=9J1mG


Yes they do not lie...In the one playoff match they had Payton held Jordan to 41%...and in all his match up's, he held Jordon to more than 2% less than is average of over 49%. He never sat him down like a scrub...he smoked many times, like he did everyone else, but few played Jordan as well and He and Dumars.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

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Reggie Miller played closer to the basket. Curry's super-power is that he can play like a Reggie Miller much further out. This makes it harder to run down ball movement when he passes out of tight defense that far away from the basket.


HUH? Steph is effective outside becasue of his penetration abilities inside...and Reggie is, along with Steph one of the greatest long distance shooter ever. Could you imagine Reggie if he played in today game where there is no hand check or knocking ones head off if you came inside?

Steph is a puss, and plays in a era where he can't be touched, and he cry's in the playoff when the ref's let them play a little more. Isiah would make him cry, as would Reggie. A Vernon Maxwell would destroy a Steph, if he played in the 90s. He made players like Kenny Smith cry, and that was in practice, they were on the same team.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _Markk »

moksha wrote:Allstar Team (when they were all 22 years old)

Starting
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Tim Duncan
Elgin Baylor
Michael Jordan
Stefan Curry

Backups
Wilt Chamberlain
Karl Malone
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
John Stockton


You need Michael and Steph to be 25, especially Steph. He was a late bloomer in regards to super star status.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_EAllusion
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Re: The Greatest NBA Player: 5 on 5 Clone Game

Post by _EAllusion »

Markk wrote:
Reggie Miller played closer to the basket. Curry's super-power is that he can play like a Reggie Miller much further out. This makes it harder to run down ball movement when he passes out of tight defense that far away from the basket.


HUH? Steph is effective outside becasue of his penetration abilities inside...and Reggie is, along with Steph one of the greatest long distance shooter ever. Could you imagine Reggie if he played in today game where there is no hand check or knocking ones head off if you came inside?

Steph is a puss, and plays in a era where he can't be touched, and he cry's in the playoff when the ref's let them play a little more. Isiah would make him cry, as would Reggie. A Vernon Maxwell would destroy a Steph, if he played in the 90s. He made players like Kenny Smith cry, and that was in practice, they were on the same team.


Your eqauting whining about the refs with weak is weird. A lot of the greatest players have a reputation for whining to the refs. That includes Michael Jordan and LeBron James. It includes Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant. This also includes some of the hardest dudes to play. Rasheed Wallace comes to mind. So does Jordan. Your obessesion with being tough just doesn’t map onto what wins games. Curry is hyper competitive. He doesn’t just give up when things don’t go his way.

Curry is also an elite dribbler/good passer, but that’s not why he’s such a good shooter. His hand eye coordination and body control are why. He’s a physical freak. He’s a freak in a different way than a Shaq is, but no less important. The tolerance for being off in your mechanics exponentially grows the further you are away from the basket. Curry stretches the bounds of precision. A few others can too, but they don’t have his other tools to make teams pay for their methods of guarding it. The result is that he bends the defense in a way the players you talk about didn’t and couldn’t.

If you instituted old hand check rules, Curry gets worse. That’s not because he is “weak” but because it is harder to maintain exact body mechanics when players are allowed to foul you during the beginning of your shooting motion.
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