Trump's Most Inhumane Act Yet?

[Guest]

Ajax, The money it would take to help these people is a drop in the bucket compared to the billions and even trillions in subsidies and tax breaks that the government already gives to already immensely wealthy corporations like the fossil fuel industry that would thrive quite well without it. It would in no way hurt the economy to divert some of that corporate welfare money to people like this who actually need it. If my taxes go up a bit to make life a bit less intolerable for or even save the lives of the disabled, so be it. I am far from a wealthy man, but my tax burden is not so onerous that I can't afford to pay a bit more if some of that tax money is used to help people who can't help themselves, or enable them to become able to help themselves and contribute positively to society. If you were the father of a beloved child needing medical intervention to save its life that costs far more than you could even begin to afford, would you turn down government assistance for that, if there were no other option?

Please stop being a cruel, thoughtless and heartless bigot like Trump!

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Doc, I'm sure ajax would not refuse money from any source, any more than his idol Trump would. It is giving up any money for anything that does not directly benefit him that he is opposed to.

That’s a very interesting observation. After spending years watching Ajax posting on this forum, I think I can confidently assess the disconnect in his thinking, understanding full well he’s incapable of understanding it, much less accepting it.

So. First thing is to understand the OP. I’m not saying anyone has to advocate for the sick, disenfranchised, immigrants, or any other group or cause as it relates to the OP. However, part of being decent is to acknowledge harm has occurred. I think Ajax isn’t so far gone that he can’t see and acknowledge suffering.

Now. Here’s the disconnect. We can either choose to take responsibility for suffering when we see it, or we can ignore it because we’re not personally suffering at this time. Taking responsibility for it means accepting those who suffer exist and the suffering ought to be rectified. He chooses not to be responsible for suffering when he sees it, because he’s not experiencing it, and doesn’t accept he has really good life compared to most. He’s the inheritor of a world where he can avoid much of the suffering that plagues the rest of the earth.

How do we strive for a world in which the comforts we enjoy are extended to as many as is humanly possible? Well, we create a system where the few who are capable in any given scenario can take care of the many. Most work to help any group is done by a very small number of people, and those people's work is made infinitely lighter by a general consensus the work needs to be done. You personally don’t need to perform surgery, and if you don’t, it doesn’t make you a hypocrite.

One thing I love about Confucius was the practical solution to solving the world’s problem. World > Nation > Family > Individual. I’d add a step between nation and family, which is municipality. Whatever. I digress.

Everyone has a responsibility first to themselves. None of us has the energy, time, or resources to help another without getting our own crap together. Then to their family, to the people around them. Then to their municipality, country, and their world. As we scale up we can actually contribute less, because we can fund specialists to be decent on our behalf. And if you can’t scale up, at least don’t advocate or react with hostility to those that do. Just agree, wish them well, and carry on with your work and what's important to you.

That's, to me, the most basic requirement for any responsible member of the human race. The government has made countless pacts on our behalf to be decent, but has reneged on them, or failed to honor what was agreed upon. I’d like to think even the most resistant and self-interested among the Right could agree it’s not a good precedent for the federal government to fail to honor these contracts, and that’s a precedent that can quickly grow if permitted.

So. My long winded point is Ajax loses perspective once he has to scale up from his family, because he doesn’t feel personally connected to issues above him, despite being more than happy to benefit from a system that’s an order of magnitude beyond his grasp.

- Doc

[_Gunnar]

Immensely well put, Doc! IMHO that is one of the best things, if not the very best and most thoughtful thing, you ever posted! Thanks so much for that contribution!

[_moksha]

I don't believe that greed and schadenfreude are the results of shirking responsibility. Other factors are also at play. For lack of a better phrase, I would term these factors as elemental conservatism.

[_Chap]

One thing I love about Confucius was the practical solution to solving the world’s problem. World > Nation > Family > Individual. I’d add a step between nation and family, which is municipality. Whatever. I digress.

Everyone has a responsibility first to themselves. None of us has the energy, time, or resources to help another without getting our own ____ together. Then to their family, to the people around them. Then to their municipality, country, and their world. As we scale up we can actually contribute less, because we can fund specialists to be decent on our behalf. And if you can’t scale up, at least don’t advocate or react with hostility to those that do. Just agree, wish them well, and carry on with your work and what's important to you.

I'm glad to see that you like Confucius. On a board like this, it is worth pointing out that he puts forward a morality effectively independent of theistic underpinnings. In the instance cited (from the Great Learning), the motive power comes from this, basically

"Look, in your family you respect your parents and older relations, right? Extend that upwards and outwards to the levels of society above and beyond your family. You care for your kids and your younger relations, right? Extend that downwards and outwards to the levels of society below and beyond your family. And in the long run you'll find things will be better for everybody, including your own family and yourself."

Ajax loses perspective once he has to scale up from his family, because he doesn’t feel personally connected to issues above him, despite being more than happy to benefit from a system that’s an order of magnitude beyond his grasp.

Yup.

He just does not realise how much he already gains from the degree of mutual aid and consideration that already exists in the society around him, and how much he would have to gain from that becoming more and more generalised. I think this may be because he is under the influence of that strange fiction, apparently more common in the US than in most other countries, that the most desirable and happy state for a person is to be utterly independent of other members of the human race, and that such a weirdly unnatural state is actually capable of being attained.

[_canpakes]

When does the nation draw a line on handouts? Is $20 trillion in debt not enough?

ajax, you speak of this debt as if all of it comes as a result from handouts.

As well, you willingly voted for the guy now pushing that debt to the highest levels in history, to which you have stated here that you don’t even care about happening, because the guy doing it is ‘your guy’.

If you don’t even know where this debt comes from, and don’t care if you’re supporting the folks who willingly add to it with corporate welfare and defense spending, then for what moral or economic reason should we cease to commit to the humanitarian cause being discussed in this thread?

[_ajax18]

However, part of being decent is to acknowledge harm has occurred. I think Ajax isn’t so far gone that he can’t see and acknowledge suffering.

There's a lot of suffering going on in the world and there always has been. And the fact is that we can't afford to pay what it would take to stop all of it even if we were willing to do so. It's no drop in the bucket. It's a tidal wave. If you're really so concerned about these people Doc, why don't you give them your retirement money and go back to work? I'm not saying you should have to do this, but how does voting to take money from me and my children to give these people make you a more moral person than me?

And yes, I stand with Trump because he puts legal American citizens first. That's how it should be. Once they're provided for, then we can talk about what's left to dole out to the rest of the world.

[_honorentheos]

However, part of being decent is to acknowledge harm has occurred. I think Ajax isn’t so far gone that he can’t see and acknowledge suffering.

There's a lot of suffering going on in the world and there always has been. And the fact is that we can't afford to pay what it would take to stop all of it even if we were willing to do so. It's no drop in the bucket. It's a tidal wave. If you're really so concerned about these people Doc, why don't you give them your retirement money and go back to work? I'm not saying you should have to do this, but how does voting to take money from me and my children to give these people make you a more moral person than me?

You're not paying extra for this, ajax. It's been going on and will keep going on if Trump is stopped. It has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with immigration policy. Stop arguing it from the economic side because that is nonsense.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

If you're really so concerned about these people Doc, why don't you give them your retirement money and go back to work? I'm not saying you should have to do this, but how does voting to take money from me and my children to give these people make you a more moral person than me?

And yes, I stand with Trump because he puts legal American citizens first. That's how it should be. Once they're provided for, then we can talk about what's left to dole out to the rest of the world.

“After spending years watching Ajax posting on this forum, I think I can confidently assess the disconnect in his thinking, understanding full well he’s incapable of understanding it, much less accepting it.”

“You personally don’t need to perform surgery, and if you don’t, it doesn’t make you a hypocrite.”

This is the person Ajax feels no responsibility toward:



Again, we see Ajax lose his moral compass once the idea of scaling up and away from his personal and family’s level. There are all sorts of ways we can care for those who suffer, and still prosper at the personal and familial levels.

Also, as a reminder to Ajax, I have, in fact, opted to work various gigs within the private sector since retiring. Suggesting I give away all my money fundamentally misunderstands, as I predicted, the point of my post. We don’t have to be Communists.

- Doc

[_ajax18]

It has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with immigration policy.

How is immigration policy not about economics? People say I'm racist but I honestly have no problem with wealthy people immigrating to America. But those aren't the people that want to come so desperately.