Will unhinged right-wingers create a deep state?

[Gunnar]

This portion of your post is reminiscent of something I read in Douglas Hofstadter's book, Gödel, Escher, Bach, an Eternal Golden Braid concerning an imaginary interview with an ant colony, treating the ant colony as a sentient entity. If you haven't already read that book, I highly recommend it. My bet is that you probably already have. Am I right?

Ha! That is a homework assignment and a half. I would be hard pressed to recommend Hofstadter to the vast majority of people in that the book isn't a read, it's a life detour.

Yeah, you have a point. It is a pretty deep book.

[Xenophon]

ETA: I feel one of my regular points on the board that never gets acknowledged is how uniquely complex US society is, which is a miracle, really. Having the third largest population, we lack "simplifying" measures like a shared ethnic background or shared cultural heritage of the two largest (China and India). Pluralism is a point of obvious structural stress in our society. Managing it effectively? Not easy. Often people point to other nations as examples that have significantly smaller populations and significantly less diverse cultures and say we should be like them. I shake my head and wonder when that person decided to side with Trump...

Sorry Honor as I acknowledge the thread/board has mostly moved beyond this but I'm just getting caught back up in my reading. For me I don't think I'm ignoring your point but rather I have few good options for working past it on a national level. My greatest success stories have been in making political arguments for folks at a local level. Ignoring the baggage of political affiliation seems significantly easier to me when I'm arguing over local tax usage or school board members than when I'm trying to find common ground on dismantling of our current healthcare system. I'm not sure if you have good resources to share or a unifying message you wish to provide but know that I'd be VERY interested. As a fairly moderate person deep in MAGA territory (my neighbor who's yard backs up to mine has sported a Trump 2024 flag since early 2021 if you need my credentials) I'm always interested in other methods for bridging the gap. Personally I have found few things that work beyond befriending people to remind them (and me to some extent) that we are all humans dealing with very real and similar problems and framing issues on a local level. And even that must be shared over a beer during a bbq and not during a random door knocking. Unfortunately I haven't found a good way to scale that up to form a unified national dialogue.

[honorentheos]

Personally I have found few things that work beyond befriending people to remind them (and me to some extent) that we are all humans dealing with very real and similar problems and framing issues on a local level. And even that must be shared over a beer during a bbq and not during a random door knocking. Unfortunately I haven't found a good way to scale that up to form a unified national dialogue.

One of the interesting books I read last year that I recommend is titled, The Framer's Coup by Harvard Law professor Michael Klarman. Most of the information in it wasn't new to me, but the organizing of the story of our Constitution from the failure of the Articles of Confederation to the aftermath of ratification was structured in a way that shed new light on the story. The outcome being the framers performed a sort of miracle in elevating the Constitution to reverence when it's origins were contentious and not all together popular.

We have national myths that I think have served as the glue where other countries can call on shared ethnic, religious, or historic identity. I get the impression each generation takes the stories of those before it and reinvents the myths for their times. In many ways the biggest threats come from people who have decided the myths are problems that need disposed of. From the left, there is disdain for anything attempting to pass as American greatness as overlooking those trampled over or overlooked. On the right, the promise of America as the melting pot and protector of small "d" democratic opportunity are now resisted as threatening "traditional values".

I think the place to start for everyone begins and ends in how we treat our mythology.

[Xenophon]

Thanks for your comments honor, I've now another read to add to my ever growing list.

From the left, there is disdain for anything attempting to pass as American greatness as overlooking those trampled over or overlooked.

I wanted to focus on this in particular as it strikes me as so painfully true. I have personally been so fortunate to accompany a few amazing individuals on their journey to citizenship. My time with them illuminated my mind to the ideals of "America" in a way that I didn't truly appreciate prior to the experience. Their desire to build their better life and viewing my home as the best possible place to do that was both heartearming and humbling. I was delighted to share at least some of those experiences with what is most easily labeled our youngest and I know it left a deep impact on her, despite her being in the age bracket that is quick to burn it all down. Oddly I imagine that might help the whole "melting pot" problem you bring up as well. I can't help but chuckle a bit at the thought of both left and right being aided by the exact same experience, regardless of the differing angles.

[Moksha]

Democracy clearly cannot be trusted given that voters chose economic nationalism and energy independence.

Sounds like you are yearning for some goose-stepping up and down Mar-a-Lago Blvd. Economic nationalism as an alternative to unfettered capitalism? Republicanism sure has changed.

[honorentheos]

I was delighted to share at least some of those experiences with what is most easily labeled our youngest and I know it left a deep impact on her, despite her being in the age bracket that is quick to burn it all down. Oddly I imagine that might help the whole "melting pot" problem you bring up as well. I can't help but chuckle a bit at the thought of both left and right being aided by the exact same experience, regardless of the differing angles.

Such a perfect encapsulation of what I was attempting to get at. At the core of our endangered myth is a foundation where I think left and right still share common ground...if we could just put down the knives and set aside the rhetoric long enough to remember.

[honorentheos]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna57550

There's a saying about the history of water rights in the West: Whiskey is for drinkin', water is for fightin'. The article above is about a community of roughly 2000 homes in unincorporated Maricopa County near Scottsdale, Arizona that have relied on private wells and imported water being told by Scottsdale that the City can no longer allow them to get the imported water from a City source they had access to and could pay for as an import option. The issue is Scottsdale can't spare the water any longer, market forces be damned. They had 10 years to work on finding alternative water sources and the clock ran out without their doing so. Why?

The Colorado River basins agreed to drought contingency plans which became law in 2019 and tier 1 activated in 2020. Each municipality in Arizona has actions that are required when different levels of the plan are initiated based on water levels in Lake Mead. Arizona is part of the lower basins group, with Arizona having the lowest level of rights to the water of the river, making the actions between tiers escalate steeply. With 2022 lowering water levels in Lake Mead and a missed deadline for parties to the DCP to make sufficient reductions to offset the need, tier 2 is being triggered in 2023.

I chose to post this in this thread rather than start a new one because it is an example of what has been talked about. The complexity of our society represented by the expansion of development in areas where infrastructure and municipal annexation do not extend are the most vulnerable to forced simplification. The attitudes and narrative around the issues often take the form of criticism. Government is criticized, those effecting change are criticized. It's common to hear older Arizona resident blame everyone who moved here after they did for the water shortages because things were just fine back when they arrived. The Kari Lakes of the world offer plans that promise we can have our growth cake and eat it, too. Simple answer? Desalination and piping water from the Mississippi! More complexity to fix our complexity problems but presented as simple solutions only a strong leader can realize. The result is a either failure and blame, or increasing the debt we will pay in the future to resolve.

ETA: From Kari Lake's website:

After meeting with experts across Arizona on this issue, I am committed to being the Governor who addresses Arizona's future water needs by stepping up to lead a national and regional effort to ensure Arizona and the entire Southwest have all the water we need to continue to grow into the future.

Short term, that means increasing our storage capacity on the Salt & Verde River system by improving and expanding our dams and reservoirs, capturing storm runoffs, lining and covering our canals, and properly managing the forests and wildlife areas surrounding these critical rivers to prevent forest fires which cause significant damage to the river ecosystem. We also have to support responsible transfer of water rights, especially working with the various tribal nations throughout Arizona. Lastly, we need to expand effluent capture and purification.

We do a lot of this stuff well already, and it's one area where both Phoenix and Tucson have been real leaders. But, long term, we need more water. Period.

Our population, along with that of the entire Southwest and Northern Mexico continues to grow. Unless we develop a new, sustainable source of water, we will soon be facing a very bleak future. Instead, the future is desalination. Israel - facing very similar circumstances as Arizona in regards to a growing population and dwindling water supply - has proven and improved this technology to the point that the majority of water now used in Israel comes from desalination, and an Israeli company just built the largest desalination plant in the Western Hemisphere outside of San Diego.

Another option we will explore is pipelining fresh water from both the Missouri and Mississippi River basins. These are proven technologies. They work. What will the cost be? Right now, we don't know. In either case, the cost and scale will require Arizona to forge agreements with the federal government, other Western states, and Mexico. Whatever the price tag ends up being, it will be far less than the cost of a future without the water we need to survive.

Reductions, restricting use, making changes to simplify our behaviors and reduce the level of convenience that complexity sustained? No mention. Those options are for losers.

[honorentheos]

I should add, access to water is a complex issue anywhere, but especially so in a desert environment. The cost of water is heavily subsidized to ensure vulnerable people have access. This example as we move to tier 2 shows that hard choices are no longer off in the future.

[honorentheos]

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/17/11373511 ... unresolved

Global climate talks in Egypt are entering their final stretch, and so far, delegates have made little progress on the biggest climate questions facing humanity.

Global greenhouse gas emissions are still rising. The Earth is on track to blow past temperature targets that could rein in the most extreme weather events. And the countries most vulnerable to climate-driven disasters are still largely on their own to pay for catastrophic damage.

Now, negotiators are entering the most intense period of the two-week meeting, known as COP27. Talks are supposed to wrap up on Friday. But those who have attended past annual meetings say it's likely that delegates will miss that deadline, given their many areas of disagreement.

"The Parties remain divided on a number of significant issues," said United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres, in a speech Thursday. "There is clearly a breakdown in trust between North and South, and between developed and emerging economies."

The main sticking point in negotiations centers on the issue of loss and damage – the question of what developed countries, which contributed the most to climate change, owe to smaller, developing countries, which are suffering its effects now. Vulnerable countries have been asking for a fund to be set up that would provide them with money in the wake of a climate-fueled disaster like the flooding in Pakistan earlier this year.

I was listening to an interview yesterday on the topic of youth activism and climate change. The interviewer asked the young adults in the interview if they felt their generation was apparently more accepting of the challenges poses by climate change and the need to address the consequences through action because they were more willing to live a lifestyle that gave up things older generations weren't willing to accept needed to change?

The answer: No. The person who answered felt they were more accepting because they used social media to communicate more fluidly to organize and demand accountability by companies and governments.

smh