Doc, Homless in LA

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_Gadianton
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Gadianton »

Res Ipsa wrote:It’s been a long and tangled conversation, but I don’t think Markk has argued that immigration is the cause of the spike in homelessness. He’s given both as examples of deteriorating conditions, but hasn’t argued that one caused the other. It was Cam who made that argument.


I agree he has not directly said it, which is why I qualified my statement as "so Mark is right *if* he thinks".

But the position is implicit within his other beliefs. Recall his claim that everything is getting worse, that buying power is shrinking, that carpenter wages (and wages everywhere) are falling because of illegals -- if all that is true, then how could it *not* contribute to homelessness? However, a person may reject the implications of their beliefs, and in this case Mark has clarified his position now and so the point is noted.

ETA: I really do think in another conversation we would not be surprised to find Markk making this connection. I think given the right day of the week, it's something he very much could believe. Let's be clear why he rejects the logical implications of his beliefs about illegals thrusting down wages and standard of living of workers generally. Because a tangent topic suddenly arose about the homeless pissing him off during his commute, that shaped the context of where they fit in. If a carpenter is pushed onto the street because his job was stolen by an illegal, we should have nothing but sympathy for the plight of many of the homeless. To keep his righteous indignation up, the homeless need to be as guilty as possible. Druggies, potheads, party animals with no responsibility, people who don't want to work. He even suggested the causal role of drug addiction to mental illness, which to me was a sly way of avoiding giving the mentally ill a pass for their condition.
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LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Markk
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Markk »

Gadianton wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:It’s been a long and tangled conversation, but I don’t think Markk has argued that immigration is the cause of the spike in homelessness. He’s given both as examples of deteriorating conditions, but hasn’t argued that one caused the other. It was Cam who made that argument.


I agree he has not directly said it, which is why I qualified my statement as "so Mark is right *if* he thinks".

But the position is implicit within his other beliefs. Recall his claim that everything is getting worse, that buying power is shrinking, that carpenter wages (and wages everywhere) are falling because of illegals -- if all that is true, then how could it *not* contribute to homelessness? However, a person may reject the implications of their beliefs, and in this case Mark has clarified his position now and so the point is noted.

ETA: I really do think in another conversation we would not be surprised to find Markk making this connection. I think given the right day of the week, it's something he very much could believe. Let's be clear why he rejects the logical implications of his beliefs about illegals thrusting down wages and standard of living of workers generally. Because a tangent topic suddenly arose about the homeless pissing him off during his commute, that shaped the context of where they fit in. If a carpenter is pushed onto the street because his job was stolen by an illegal, we should have nothing but sympathy for the plight of many of the homeless. To keep his righteous indignation up, the homeless need to be as guilty as possible. Druggies, potheads, party animals with no responsibility, people who don't want to work. He even suggested the causal role of drug addiction to mental illness, which to me was a sly way of avoiding giving the mentally ill a pass for their condition.


Where did I say wages were falling everywhere because of illegal immigration? It cracks me up that you have to make ME the boogie man...instead of dealing with the root issues.

You sure do bend and twist what I say. Where did I say that a carpenter was pushed into the street...again you conflate to arguments.

Where am I being self righteous? I have said many are druggies, thieves, mentally ill, and I will add things like prostitutes...etc. Why...becasue that is the truth. And if you can not accept the truth how can we help them? Do you think just giving these types of folks low rent will help them with their issues? The chronically homeless are homeless for deep reasons Glad

I have spent a lot of time working with the homeless and to ignore the root issues is missing the problem.

When we (my wife and I) first starting out feeding the homeless and poor in San Bernardino with a BBQ in the back of my pick up, we struggled with the fact that many, probably the most of the people we were feeding had an angle...or a hustle. They would smell like booze, or be drinking booze, smoking weed, or be high. Many would try to "hustle" us out of extra soda or food...or even take three blankets or sweat shirts when there wasn't enough to give one to the folks. Granted this was a tough area and we were very naïve.

We talked about it and came to the conclusion that we were there for the smaller percentage that really needed it. For the kids, especially when their parents were addicts. Or the slow folks, and were raising kids who will not have much of a chance...and the mentally ill. Those were the ones that we decided we were there for.

It is not how you think it is Glad, and it is growing. I know you think I am this red neck bigot, but you have no idea where my heart is, or what it is like in some of these places...and you need to understand the problem before you can deal with it and tough love a is a huge part of getting many of these folks off of drugs and off the streets..
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Gadianton
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Gadianton »

Markk wrote:Where did I say wages were falling everywhere because of illegal immigration?


Markk wrote:I just gave you statistics that show that both wages and buying power are down, by about half, since 1960. These are real stats.


Markk wrote:Where did I say that a carpenter was pushed into the street


Where did *I* say that *you* said a carpenter was pushed into the street? Slow down on your reading if you aren't good at it. I cut slow with my power saws because I know I don't have the same experience as others. There's no shame in taking a little more time with something you're inexperienced in.

Mark wrote:Where am I being self righteous? I have said many are druggies, thieves, mentally ill, and I will add things like prostitutes...etc. Why...becasue that is the truth. And if you can not accept the truth how can we help them? Do you think just giving these types of folks low rent will help them with their issues? The chronically homeless are homeless for deep reasons Glad


The portion in bold exactly. It is not *I* who can't accept the truth but *you* who can't accept the truth. I have no vested interest in the causes of the problem. If the Los Angeles Homeless Services authority comes out and says that 97% have serious addiction problems, that most of them are released prisoners who have lapsed right back into crime, and that the vast majority stay on the streets for years without trying to get out, then I'd take their word for it. But that's not what they're saying. In 2017 the Chronically homeless are 30% of all homeless. Dealing with that 30% requires different steps than dealing with the 70% who are not chronically homeless.

Mark wrote:I have spent a lot of time working with the homeless and to ignore the root issues is missing the problem


The Los Angeles Homeless Services authority has spent more time working with the homeless than you have and has examined the problem in far more detail than you have with specialists with far more training than you have and they actually have methodology to their counts that you don't.

Markk wrote:when we (my wife and I) first starting out feeding the homeless...


Who cares? I tried to help a homeless couple once and I got way in over my head. They took advantage me, I almost got myself in trouble for it, and it was hugely stressful. I would never try such a thing again. This has no bearing on the studies done by the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority.

Those were the ones that we decided we were there for.


that's fantastic, but it doesn't take away from your illogical and inconsistent arguments, and your rejection of data provided by teams of professionals who have combed the streets of LA and studied the problem. Also, the way in which you misread various statistics you've cited is telling as it's always to the detriment of the homeless.

If I were like you, and instead of having it out for the homeless I had it out for rednecks, then I'd misread stories about country folk in a way that consistently diminished the standing of country folk. For instance, if a story said that a small rural town had an average wage of 4$ an hour for shopkeepers, I'd misread that as an average of 4$ a day for all jobs. I would never misread something in the direction that improved standing.

I know you think I am this red neck bigot, but you have no idea where my heart is, or what it is like in some of these places


I have no opinion on where your heart is, but I do have an opinion on your ability to construct and argument and synthesize information.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Markk
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Markk »

Markk wrote:
I just gave you statistics that show that both wages and buying power are down, by about half, since 1960. These are real stats.


Where does that read all wages and becasue of illegals...you changed what i wrote in context into a huge blanket statement.

Glad wrote..Where did *I* say that *you* said a carpenter was pushed into the street?


I apologize, I did read too fast.


Glad wrote
Slow down on your reading if you aren't good at it.
.

And you should do the same, you have constantly twisted and bent what I wrote, then try to wiggle out of it.

glad wrote ...I cut slow with my power saws because I know I don't have the same experience as others. There's no shame in taking a little more time with something you're inexperienced in.


Okay...the same with you...take a little more time and come out and understand what is happening here, take a little more time to opine on what I said in any kind of context. You have read a few studies and think you understand a very complex issue. I get you don't like people like me, probably people in general, and based on past conversations, that you are not very happy with your life...but you give some good advice here...I do get in a hurry and get sloppy at times, most the time I opine on the run or while working in my shop. But so do you...or you are just cynical and stubborn...you choose...my guess is a little of both as many of us are here at times.

I wrote in the very beginning here that high rent was part of the issue...your position seems to me that it is the only reason. I believe it was you I asked to break down what part of the 23% was attributed to high rent alone.











Glad wrote...Who cares? I tried to help a homeless couple once and I got way in over my head. They took advantage me, I almost got myself in trouble for it, and it was hugely stressful. I would never try such a thing again.


I do...but I would love for you to share your experience, I promise you I will care.

Gald wrote...This has no bearing on the studies done by the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority.


The HUD study you shared was flawed and skewed, and I showed you why. There is no way only 18% of the homeless are substance dependent...I showed you studies where it was in the low 60%'s, which is consistent with what I have written here.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Amore
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Amore »

I haven’t read the entire thread so sorry if this has already been mentioned...

It does seem like a problem that is getting worse. There are various reasons for people to end up homeless so those need to be taken into account for solutions. https://www.nlchp.org/documents/Homeles ... Fact_Sheet
I do feel that much of the problems are rooted in lack of family stability in childhood, and then domino effects from there.

One possible solution for some is to do what NYC has done and offer homeless families a free one-way ticket so they can go live with family or friends rather than the shelters (or streets).
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/07/29 ... costs.html
_Markk
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Markk »

Amore wrote:I haven’t read the entire thread so sorry if this has already been mentioned...

It does seem like a problem that is getting worse. There are various reasons for people to end up homeless so those need to be taken into account for solutions. https://www.nlchp.org/documents/Homeles ... Fact_Sheet
I do feel that much of the problems are rooted in lack of family stability in childhood, and then domino effects from there.

One possible solution for some is to do what New York City has done and offer homeless families a free one-way ticket so they can go live with family or friends rather than the shelters (or streets).
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/07/29 ... costs.html


San Diego is offering one way tickets.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Gadianton
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Gadianton »

If my paraphrase was inadequate, I'm happy to rewrite:

me wrote:that carpenter wages (and wages everywhere) are falling because of illegals


as:

me wrote:wages and buying power are down, by about half, since 1960, because of illegals



Mark wrote:There is no way only 18% of the homeless are substance dependent


Not 18%, 16%. 18% over the age of 18, but 16% of total population. (LA 2017)

Mark wrote:I showed you studies where it was in the low 60%'s


No you didn't, as there is no such study. If you would like to link this study you have in mind again, I will show you why it doesn't say what you think it does.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Morley
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Morley »

Gadianton wrote:
Mark wrote:There is no way only 18% of the homeless are substance dependent


Not 18%, 16%. 18% over the age of 18, but 16% of total population. (LA 2017)

Mark wrote:I showed you studies where it was in the low 60%'s


No you didn't, as there is no such study. If you would like to link this study you have in mind again, I will show you why it doesn't say what you think it does.


Bumping for Markk. Here's your chance to prove everyone wrong. As you say:

Markk wrote:You can find a study to prove just about anything.
_Markk
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _Markk »

Morley wrote:
Bumping for Markk. Here's your chance to prove everyone wrong. As you say:


I have already given him the study,that showed at 62%...and I have shown how the HUD study is skewed.



Who is everybody? Seeing you know...show me how 16% of LA homeless are SUD...and then explain to me what SUD actually entails, and what the criteria that was used used to qualify a person as SUD. Then add in the percentage of veterans that are sud and aud, along with the MI and other groups that have high percentages of sud and aud folks..

Here is the last one I gave to Glad.

Many people become addicts after becoming homeless, not before. (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration study) The study found that of the homeless:

38% are alcoholics
26% are addicted to other substances
25% suffer from mental illness


{edit} pasted wrong link, this is the correct link.

https://losangeles.urbdezine.com/2015/1 ... -homeless/



Here is your chance to be more than a clone. I am going to ask Glad to hold off and let you answer this, being that you know all the data.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_schreech
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Re: Doc, Homless in LA

Post by _schreech »

Markk wrote:
Morley wrote:
Bumping for Markk. Here's your chance to prove everyone wrong. As you say:


I have already given him the study,that showed at 62%...and I have shown how the HUD study is skewed.



Who is everybody? Seeing you know...show me how 16% of LA homeless are SUD...and then explain to me what SUD actually entails, and what the criteria that was used used to qualify a person as SUD. Then add in the percentage of veterans that are sud and aud, along with the MI and other groups that have high percentages of sud and aud folks..

Here is the last one I gave to Glad.

Many people become addicts after becoming homeless, not before. (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration study) The study found that of the homeless:

38% are alcoholics
26% are addicted to other substances
25% suffer from mental illness


{edit} pasted wrong link, this is the correct link.

https://losangeles.urbdezine.com/2015/1 ... -homeless/



Here is your chance to be more than a clone. I am going to ask Glad to hold off and let you answer this, being that you know all the data.


Omg, you are adding those numbers together as if they are mutually exclusive.
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
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