MDB Bible Study

[_Ceeboo]

Morning honor,
I'm really not sure if I am simply misunderstanding you - or if you are simply misunderstanding me - or something else? I will give it another try

Hey Ceebs,

You say above I should start by us both seeing the same things

Yes. We are both seeing the same things (An example might be a news story about an event.)

and that the difference is in in our beliefs about what causes them.

Yes. Our differences here is about what could be impacting, influencing or causing these things.

The issue here is we are seeing the same things.

No, that's not an issue at all. At this point we are both simply seeing or viewing the same information/behavior/events.

I thought the difference was in what the person who believed in a spirit realm saw

No, we both are seeing or learning about the same things/events. A spirit realm believer has not yet entered the equation. Nor has the other person who does not believe in a spiritual realm.

and experienced

I don't want to add 'experience/experiences' to the table yet - while this is a separate topic, adding it now will only muddy the waters at this point.

Not that they interpreted what we both saw differently. If it's just a difference in interpretation, we're back at asking if it affects reality?

If a spiritual realm exists- then it would obviously affect reality because it's real. It exists.
If a spiritual realm does not exist - then it would obviously not affect reality because it's not real. It doesn't exist.

You seem to be stating that a spiritual realm does not exist - concluding that it doesn't affect reality (correct me if I am wrong here)

Are we getting anywhere, or no?

[_honorentheos]

If a spiritual realm exists- then it would obviously affect reality because it's real. It exists.
If a spiritual realm does not exist - then it would obviously not affect reality because it's not real. It doesn't exist.

Yes, I think we're getting somewhere. Hopefully there's cold beer when we get there.

So if there is a spirit realm that exists and affects reality then how is it effecting reality? Like an object with mass whose gravity may not be seen but can be otherwise sensed or affects objects around it, if it affects reality then how does it do so?

If instead we say a person who believes in a spirit realm may choose to interpret what they see and experience differently from one who does not, we could say that about tons of things we know aren't real as objects but only exist as concepts. Disney Princesses and unicorns or black helicopters and chem trails, a better future hoped for but not seen or everyone is out to get you...belief in such can affect how a person behaves and how they experience the world around them. But they are not of a class with things that, when seen and experienced, cause people's interpretations of what they saw and experienced to converge because there is something to them that is beyond just what occurs in ones mind.

My question then is if the spirit realm is something that, when it affects reality, results in a convergence of shared understanding of what was seen and experienced? Or is this more a belief like other concepts in the category of conceptual things that influence a person entirely subjectively where it is influencing how a person understands the inputs they are receiving from their senses, etc.?

[_canpakes]

Hey honor

So if a person who believes in a spirit realm sees and experiences the world differently than those who don't, what is that difference then?

The differences are significant.

Hypothetically, let's say that I believe in the spiritual realm and let's say that you don't.

You don't think that we could see the same things (horrific mass murders by people/governments, horrific wars, battles with addictions, terrorism, atrocities committed in the name of religion/God, vile hatred against groups of people, severe depression, massive porn industries, child sex slavery, oppression of peoples, families it utter chaos, crippling fears, etc, etc) and have different beliefs as to what possible reasons might exist for the utter violence, disgust, injustices, and destructive actions/behavior that we see around the world on a daily basis?

Ceeboo -

One difference between these two sets of people might be in what they think is the cause behind these terrible behaviors and events.

One set might propose that the cause is ‘evil’, or Satan.

The other might interpret the cause to be willful behavior originating by desire from within the person.

The two choices have different ramifications regarding responsibility and the possibilities for changes in that behavior.

[_honorentheos]

Personally I don't believe anyone has cornered the market on reality, so it's most helpful to move past the superficial variance and towards convergence as those things most people similarly experience are likely based on a tangible outside reality.

When someone posits the existence of something that requires belief to experience it or its influence then the question becomes what bearing it has in reality. I believe in concepts like justice and duty. I'm sure they are grounded in more than just my own mind but are able to influence my actions and "choices". But because they are what they are, I assert a need to remain skeptical of how much I can rely on them to assert an objective claim about the world as it is or even ought to be.

I don't see belief in a spiritual realm as any different. I don't believe in such but I believe in conceptual ideals and motivating purposes that exert influence on me. So I don't know what the point here is other than to question if our supposed Christ affirming Bible Study exercise is meaningful. If that's the question, it would helpful to get to it directly rather than circumspectly. So, does it matter to reality?

[_Jersey Girl]

Hey Ceebs,

I want your opinion on something. Do you think it's okay for a believer in Christ to speak directly to Satan? Or should we be asking Jesus to intercede on our behalf? Or both?

Asking for a friend. ;-)

[_honorentheos]

You could just do it and see if anything happens. I'm going to guess nothing will happen because I just tried it and that was the result. But you don't need to just take my word for it.

[_Jersey Girl]

You could just do it and see if anything happens. I'm going to guess nothing will happen because I just tried it and that was the result. But you don't need to just take my word for it.

Hey you.

I've done it myself. I just want to get Ceeboo's take on it since he's leading the study.

Get off my cloud.
;-)

[_honorentheos]

What?! Ain't I rich enough, Jersey Girl?

I'm not too blind to see...

[_canpakes]

What?! Ain't I rich enough, Jersey Girl?

I'm not too blind to see...

I yet asked Satan for pizza. No result yet.

You’d think that Satan would jump at this chance to see me engage in gluttony and ruin my waistline.

[Guest]

Hey Ceebs,

Hey Jersey Girl

I want your opinion on something. Do you think it's okay for a believer in Christ to speak directly to Satan? Or should we be asking Jesus to intercede on our behalf? Or both?

If you have had the very hard to explain born again experience (Your life has radically changed - your heart has changed (not the same desires as before) your mind has been completely changed (you think about literally everything different than the old you) then you have been transformed by God - It is by the Grace of God and for His glory that you now have the Holy Spirit (God) dwelling inside you. You have become the Temple of God and because of this Satan can not enter a home that God already owns and is living in.

This does not mean that you will not encounter demonic spirits. Their very purpose is to lie, steel and destroy - so as followers of Christ, we would be wise to read the scriptures that speaks of these things and ask God for his provision and protection.

If you have not had this experience, I would be very cautious playing around with Satan and/or his army of demonic spirits - meaning, I would certainly call on the Lord to help in dealing with these very serious spiritual matters.

Spiritual warfare is a very real and very serious thing. It should never be treated as anything but.

Asking for a friend. ;-)

Answering a friend. :)