Doc, Homless in LA

[_Morley]

Thanks, Markk. For starting the thread and for being willing to engage.

I've learned a lot from everyone involved.

[_Markk]

Thanks, Markk. For starting the thread and for being willing to engage.

I've learned a lot from everyone involved.

Thanks, so have I.

[_Gadianton]

But it is funny how you twist things...drug addicts raise kids, alcoholics raise kids, and mentally ill or mentally challenged folks raise kids...

Mark, whatever I'd be inclined to agree with in terms of a cycle of poverty, a cycle of abuse, or a cycle of alcoholism, and the increased odds of one day being homeless with this stuff in the background, it does not follow that such cycles occur in generation-to-generation examples on the street. I'm especially wary of seriously mentally ill folks (the largest group of chronically homeless) "raising kids" in the street who then become seriously mentally ill themselves due to poor "moral compass" and then go off to have another generation of homeless kids. I mean, past a certain point in mental illness, taking care of oneself ceases to happen let alone "raising" children.

But you have a big CFR given 1% of the chronically homeless exist in families (in LA in 2017).

But your study does not touch on those things.

Mark, my "study" is raw count data. We have not arrived at a point where much discussion beyond raw numbers would be necessary since numbers alone make many of your claims implausible and therefore, unworthy of discussion. I dismiss your claims with an arrogant wave of my hand. If EA were to tell me he just spent the evening with some of his friends, All Major League baseball players with batting averages above .800, then I dismiss his claim until he can either provide extraordinary proof, or change his claim to something realistic before we take the discussion farther.

[_Markk]

But it is funny how you twist things...drug addicts raise kids, alcoholics raise kids, and mentally ill or mentally challenged folks raise kids...

Mark, whatever I'd be inclined to agree with in terms of a cycle of poverty, a cycle of abuse, or a cycle of alcoholism, and the increased odds of one day being homeless with this stuff in the background, it does not follow that such cycles occur in generation-to-generation examples on the street. I'm especially wary of seriously mentally ill folks (the largest group of chronically homeless) "raising kids" in the street who then become seriously mentally ill themselves due to poor "moral compass" and then go off to have another generation of homeless kids. I mean, past a certain point in mental illness, taking care of oneself ceases to happen let alone "raising" children.

But you have a big CFR given 1% of the chronically homeless exist in families (in LA in 2017).

But your study does not touch on those things.

Mark, my "study" is raw count data. We have not arrived at a point where much discussion beyond raw numbers would be necessary since numbers alone make many of your claims implausible and therefore, unworthy of discussion. I dismiss your claims with an arrogant wave of my hand. If EAllusion were to tell me he just spent the evening with some of his friends, All Major League baseball players with batting averages above .800, then I dismiss his claim until he can either provide extraordinary proof, or change his claim to something realistic before we take the discussion farther.

What is your study based on? What were the questions? What was the sample for the study? Does SUD include Alcohol, and if so do you still stand by it being 16+- percent.

I never said "serious" mentally ill...I believe I said "mentally ill and mentally challenged." You are baiting and switching again. What I wrote was general and can even include non homeless poor that bounce around. It


I wrote....
You wrote in one of your first posts on this topic..."The three big causes of persistent homelessness are domestic violence, drug/alcohol addiction, and pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability." Which I agree with. And in my years of ministry with the homeless that is undeniable in my experience. I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance..

It was not just mentally ill, or even mentally challenged...but kids of those that are AUD and SUD...and not only homeless but those that bounce around, will have a greater chance of ending up on the streets and in prison.

I understand you need to tweak what I write and put it into some sort of context you can complain about.

[_Gadianton]

Does SUD include Alcohol, and if so do you still stand by it being 16+- percent.

Yes. Why would I not stand behind it? I have no grounds to object to any of the stats in that study. I don't reject statistics because I don't like them or they don't line up with my own personal experiences. If I think something is way off, I would look for authoritative criticisms of the data if they exist, or other sources for similar data to compare. The only stat that gave me pause in terms of data quality was the domestic violence stat.

I never said "serious" mentally ill...I believe I said "mentally ill and mentally challenged.

After the fact, you changed your claim to be a more general claim. Let's look at what you originally wrote -- you quoted EA.

You wrote in one of your first posts on this topic..."The three big causes of persistent homelessness are domestic violence, drug/alcohol addiction, and pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability." Which I agree with. And in my years of ministry with the homeless that is undeniable in my experience. I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance..

You agreed with all of EAs factors that lead to persistent homelessness and then added your own testimony from the ministry that all the above -- referring to persistent homelessness -- which is then coupled with raising kids into the cycle (what cycle??) -- the cycle of persistent homelessness (that you imagine).

After I blasted your rusty old battleship out of the water, you changed your claim:

drug addicts raise kids, alcoholics raise kids, and mentally ill or mentally challenged folks raise kids... and when they are on and off the streets... bouncing around, and these kids have no support...chances are higher they will become homeless in their lives or worse (prison). But your study does not touch on those things. Maybe that should be part of the criteria on your list.

Markk, what are the chances that persistently homeless children being raised by persistently homeless parents will one day become homeless?

(I think the answer is 100%).

Yes, drug addicts and alcoholics and mentally ill people raise kids, but that's NOT what you were speaking to before, which was the cycle of homelessness you observed in the ministry, with persistently homeless parents raising kids with no moral compass to be persistently homeless parents themselves one day.

What I wrote was general

Yes it was, AFTER your battleship sinking.

I understand you need to tweak what I write

Mark, you gave yourself a mulligan and tweaked your own claim. Originally, you clearly referenced EAs discussion of persistent homelessness and drugs/DV and severe mental illness as part of a cycle that involves entire families out there on the street that you ministered to. When I cited the stat that only 1% of the chronically homeless are in some kind of family arrangement on the street you changed your claim to be that generally, an unstable lifestyle of drugs and mentally ill parents may lead to children with greater risks for homelessness or prison. No crap? Two entirely different claims.

[_Markk]

You wrote in one of your first posts on this topic..."The three big causes of persistent homelessness are domestic violence, drug/alcohol addiction, and pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability." Which I agree with. And in my years of ministry with the homeless that is undeniable in my experience. I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance.. emphasis Gad's

You agreed with all of EAs factors that lead to persistent homelessness and then added your own testimony from the ministry that all the above -- referring to persistent homelessness -- which is then coupled with raising kids into the cycle (what cycle??) -- the cycle of persistent homelessness (that you imagine).

After I blasted your rusty old battleship out of the water, you changed your claim:

Why didn't you enlarge the font and bold "alcohol, drugs and domestic violence? By not doing so you took my point completely out of context. The cycle I spoke of included several conditions.

But here... https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... xperiences

For children who grow up in the care of a mentally ill parent, life is often filled with anxiety, uncertainty and vigilance. It is not unusual for their needs to be neglected — and they may even have to “compete” with their parent’s symptoms in order to receive care themselves. It also poses risk factors for issues that can emerge later in life, including emotional and psychological disturbances, learning challenges, and poorer overall functioning. In addition, there are a host of social challenges that these children may encounter, such as social rejection, troubled relationships, marital problems, and family dissolution.

What i wrote compliments this...I wrote...

I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance..

You are just trying to pick apart anything I write, by ignoring my point.

But back again to the question I keep asking, and that you are ducking. What was the criteria for your study? Were these homeless evaluated by doctors for AUD, SUD, and mental illness, or did a volunteer just walk up to a person on the street or shelter and ask them a question like . . . "are you a alcoholic?". . . and then give them a subway sandwich?

Gad wrote...Yes. Why would I not stand behind it? I have no grounds to object to any of the stats in that study. I don't reject statistics because I don't like them or they don't line up with my own personal experiences. If I think something is way off, I would look for authoritative criticisms of the data if they exist, or other sources for similar data to compare. The only stat that gave me pause in terms of data quality was the domestic violence stat.

If you stand by the study. . . what was the criteria for the study. . . do you know, or are you just reluctant to reveal it? What was the sample of the study. . . did "they" interview all 50 some odd thousand folks?

[_Gadianton]

Your most obvious inconsistency, which got bolded and enlarged, is where you agreed with EA specifically when he said:

"pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability" -EA "Which I agree with" -- Mark

And then later you changed to:

I never said "serious" mentally ill...I believe I said "mentally ill and mentally challenged.

I'm pretty sure pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability is serious, Mark. Or do you really disagree?

You either agreed with EA and then botched it by creating your own family homelessness cycle out of it or you misread EA entirely and made an a point that has nothing to do with this conversation really.

What i wrote compliments this...I wrote...

You're right, what you wrote compliments a psychology today article that has nothing to do with this discussion. Here, let me step down from my high horse and help you out, because you really need it.

Next time, don't write this:

You (EA) wrote in one of your first posts on this topic..."The three big causes of persistent homelessness are domestic violence, drug/alcohol addiction, and pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability." Which I agree with. And in my years of ministry with the homeless that is undeniable in my experience. I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance..

Write this:

psychology today wrote in an article that barely has anything to do with this topic..."For children who grow up in the care of a mentally ill parent, life is often filled with anxiety, uncertainty and vigilance. It is not unusual for their needs to be neglected — and they may even have to “compete” with their parent’s symptoms in order to receive care themselves. It also poses risk factors for issues that can emerge later in life, including emotional and psychological disturbances, learning challenges, and poorer overall functioning. In addition, there are a host of social challenges that these children may encounter, such as social rejection, troubled relationships, marital problems, and family dissolution." Which I agree with. And in my years of ministry with the children growing up with a mentally ill parent that is undeniable in my experience. I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance..

[_Markk]

Your most obvious inconsistency, which got bolded and enlarged, is where you agreed with EAllusion specifically when he said:

"pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability" -EA "Which I agree with" -- Mark

And then later you changed to:

I never said "serious" mentally ill...I believe I said "mentally ill and mentally challenged.

I'm pretty sure pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability is serious, Mark. Or do you really disagree?

You either agreed with EAllusion and then botched it by creating your own family homelessness cycle out of it or you misread EAllusion entirely and made an a point that has nothing to do with this conversation really.

What i wrote compliments this...I wrote...

You're right, what you wrote compliments a psychology today article that has nothing to do with this discussion. Here, let me step down from my high horse and help you out, because you really need it.

Next time, don't write this:

You (EAllusion) wrote in one of your first posts on this topic..."The three big causes of persistent homelessness are domestic violence, drug/alcohol addiction, and pervasive, long-term mental illness that causes disability." Which I agree with. And in my years of ministry with the homeless that is undeniable in my experience. I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance..

Write this:

psychology today wrote in an article that barely has anything to do with this topic..."For children who grow up in the care of a mentally ill parent, life is often filled with anxiety, uncertainty and vigilance. It is not unusual for their needs to be neglected — and they may even have to “compete” with their parent’s symptoms in order to receive care themselves. It also poses risk factors for issues that can emerge later in life, including emotional and psychological disturbances, learning challenges, and poorer overall functioning. In addition, there are a host of social challenges that these children may encounter, such as social rejection, troubled relationships, marital problems, and family dissolution." Which I agree with. And in my years of ministry with the children growing up with a mentally ill parent that is undeniable in my experience. I would add, and maybe there is a word for it, but all the above raising kids into the cycle, kids that do not have much of a chance as they grow older, having a small moral compass and no guidance..

So you are not going to tell me how the survey that came to the conclusion that only 16%+- of the homeless in LA are SUD/AUD...was conducted. At least answer me this...do you know how it was conducted, or are you just too embarrassed how the study was formulated?


IF you have a problem with my believing that messed up parents raising kids into their problems, I guess I can't change that...but i stand by my opinion that I believe it lends to homelessness, and other issues, like prison...which I already noted.

https://www.samhsa.gov/homelessness-pro ... ing-crisis

Child Homelessness Often Is Under-estimated

While progress has been made in recent years in reducing chronic homelessness among veterans and other single adults, Dr. Bassuk said the opposite is true for families. Policymakers tend to under-count families experiencing homelessness because the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) does not count precariously housed or doubled-up families, only those living on the street or in shelters. In addition, programs designed for families experiencing homelessness tend to focus on the needs of the mother and pay less attention to the critical needs of the children. While becoming homeless is potentially traumatizing for people of any age, it is important to recognize that, when young children experience trauma, there is a relatively short window in their developmental process to address the trauma before it becomes a serious problem that affects them as adults.

The type of shelters available to families contributes to the destabilizing trauma experienced by children, according to Dr. Bassuk. Family shelters are often large, older houses where the entire family stays in one room. There is no privacy or safe place for children to play, and boys over the age of 12 are often not permitted. If families do not quickly find permanent housing and are forced to remain in the shelter system, 40 to 50% of them will break up within 5 years, with children being sent to live with relatives or placed in foster care, Dr. Bassuk noted. These children face almost insurmountable obstacles as they become adults and are often trapped in a cycle of poverty, ill health, and significant social disadvantages.

[_Gadianton]

So you are not going to tell me how the survey that came to the conclusion that only 16%+- of the homeless in LA are SUD/AUD...was conducted. At least answer me this...do you know how it was conducted, or are you just too embarrassed how the study was formulated?

The problem with you and ldsfaqs and a few others is that those of us correcting your nightmarish misrepresentations of basic reality do all the work while you sit back and evade, change the subject, spout off sentences that barely make sense and cite articles you haven't read that contradict your point or have nothing to do with it. And you just keep going, indefinitely. There is information on the site that shows how the data was generated. Since you can't even comprehend what the basic news articles you cite in your defense are saying, it would be pointless to get so deep in the weeds.

IF you have a problem with my believing that messed up parents raising kids into their problems, I guess I can't change that...but i stand by my opinion that I believe it lends to homelessness, and other issues, like prison...which I already noted.

By all means, recast your stupid position about persistent or chronic generational family homelessness that you experienced in the ministry into something that at least makes basic sense, and then stand by it since nobody will disagree with it.

Your new article, once again, contradicts your own points.

While progress has been made in recent years in reducing chronic homelessness among veterans and other single adults, Dr. Bassuk said the opposite is true for families. Policymakers tend to under-count families experiencing homelessness because the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) does not count precariously housed or doubled-up families, only those living on the street or in shelters.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the claims you've been making. Dr. Bassuk is disputing the common definition of homelessness because he feels that children living in poor ghetto conditions or doubled-up housing also count as homeless. You've botched "circular reasoning", "straw man", and "bait and switch" in your accusations against myself and others, revealing that you do not even know what these terms mean, and I did not have the energy to explain them to you so to make it up I'll give you a brief introduction into the fallacy of "equivocation".

You cited this article because it reads "Child homelessness Often is Under-estimated" hoping to get me, because right there in plain English it seems to dispute the 1% chronic homeless count. Maybe that's really 62 percent? Mark is hopeful. But "homelessness" in a re-defined sense that focuses on poor and unstable home situations has absolutely nothing to do with anything you've been writing. You've been very focused on people living on the streets getting into your field of view, or people on the street during your street ministry. Up until this very post, your use of the word "homeless" has been right in line with the HUD definition. Your issue hasn't been folks with problems defecating on the carpet away out from your view but folks with problems defecating in front of you on the street. The problem for you has been what's messing up your drive to work and your nice café circles. If you now wish to be concerned about what folks are doing out from your view in poor housing, be my guest, but it is a new concern that has nothing to do with your pages and pages of complaining and ranting up to this point.

I've gone well past my self-imposed quota in responding to ldsfaqs-level argumentation on this topic and you quite frankly, haven't deserved my generous corrections to your atrocious reasoning. From high above you upon my white stallion, I dismiss your ignorance with a final wave of my hand and bid you good day on this topic, as it's the polite thing to do.

[_schreech]

I've gone well past my self-imposed quota in responding to ldsfaqs-level argumentation on this topic and you quite frankly, haven't deserved my generous corrections to your atrocious reasoning. From high above you upon my white stallion, I dismiss your ignorance with a final wave of my hand and bid you good day on this topic, as it's the polite thing to do.