Assualt weapons

[_I have a question]

As a remote observer I would suggest that whatever policies and procedures and controls or non controls have held sway on America's gun trade, they aren't conducive to reversing the increasing trend of mass shootings. To simply hold a position of "there's nothing wrong with the gun controls we have" is effectively saying that you don't care how many people get shot, or how often - your right to own a weapon is more important.

For those defending current gun laws and NRA opinion, how many more people would need to get shot in a mass shooting before you changed your mind? 10, 100, 1000? How many deaths are acceptable to preserve your gun ownership rights?

And don't waffle on and avoid the question. Answer it directly. What is your number?

[_Ceeboo]

HI, Ceeboo!

Hey again, Maklelan!

I would suggest that the appeal to moderation is not necessarily the best approach in this kind of discussion.

Perhaps?

But - I haven't seen an alternate approach to this kind of discussion that has worked. Have you?

I have seen rhetoric (from all sides)
I have seen politicizing (from all sides)
I have seen hostilities (from all sides)
I have seen intolerance (from all sides)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Ceeboo]

Well, now that we are on page 14 of a thread that I have participated in - I guess I ought to offer a few of my uninformed, ignorant, and personal opinions to the mix.

Hey Q!

A very interesting thread topic!

In an effort to be transparent, I am very ignorant when it comes to the broad topic of guns. I have never owned any guns and I have only shot a gun a few times in my life.

Having said that - and to be entirely honest with you - I really don't know how I feel about this topic and that is precisely why I rarely engage about this topic. (I almost always just read and remain silent)

So - now that I have said so little, I will return to just reading this thread.

I hope that this thread continues to move - in my opinion this board is littered with a lot of very bright people (some are brilliant) - thus, it could become an extremely interesting discussion.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Having said the above already - early in the thread:

It seems clear to me that something needs to be done about gun control in the US. I simply and honestly have no idea what that something ought to be.

A few more thoughts - in no particular order of importance:

I think about the constitution -
I think about the sport -
I think about domestic violence -
I think about gang wars -
I think about mentally ill people -
I think about accidents -
I think about rights that people have died to defend -
I think about people who want to murder other people -

I think about the potential dangers of removing guns from law abiding citizens.

I think about what the impact will really be - the real impact - that any law - of any kind - will have on people who don't obey laws.

I think about things we have already made to be against the law and how that has had almost zero impact on the portion of people who have no interest in obeying laws.

I think about the probability of people who want to get an assault weapon - getting an assault weapon - no matter what the law is.

In short - this is a fantastically complex and deeply troubling issue/topic and I don't know what ought to be done - if anything - about it.

I want to repeat a few things:

I have never owned any guns - I personally don't like them.
I am very ignorant and uninformed about the many types of guns - and I am just as ignorant and uninformed about the various potential degrees of danger and damage that each type of gun brings.

Lastly, I am disappointed in how this thread has evolved. I thought it had a chance to be a very informative and valuable discussion about a very complex topic. But - that's just my opinion.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Themis]

HI, Ceeboo! I would suggest that the appeal to moderation is not necessarily the best approach in this kind of discussion. It is simply a fact that pro-gun rhetoric has facilitated the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent Americans. As I've shown, where gun control if effective and strong, far fewer people die gun-related deaths, while in places where the kind of rhetoric Rock promotes has held sway, and gun control has been impeded, far more people die gun-related deaths. This is not a question of theological or academic propriety, this is a question of ideology that kills. There is a right and a wrong here. The facts unilaterally support stronger gun control. There are no facts to which Rock can appeal to support his ideology. All he can do is appeal naïvely to emotive rhetoric, to widely discredited pseudo-scholarship, and anecdotal evidence to defend his glorification of gun culture. That is simply wrong and demonstrably harmful, and I will not yield to or give deference or respect to rhetoric that literally kills.

On a positive side Rock has said he favors a licensing system.

[_Themis]

In short - this is a fantastically complex and deeply troubling issue/topic and I don't know what ought to be done - if anything - about it.

It's really not complex at all. Simple ideas that other countries have implemented work well in reducing harm. One of those ideas is a licensing system.

[_The CCC]

In short - this is a fantastically complex and deeply troubling issue/topic and I don't know what ought to be done - if anything - about it.

It's really not complex at all. Simple ideas that other countries have implemented work well in reducing harm. One of those ideas is a licensing system.

Works for me. We require licensing to drive a motor vehicle on the public roads. I have no objections to doing the same with firearms.

[_Ceeboo]

Hi Themis!

In short - this is a fantastically complex and deeply troubling issue/topic and I don't know what ought to be done - if anything - about it.

It's really not complex at all.

Surely, you must be speaking about just discussing it, yes?

When it comes to actually doing something about it (Laws. Licenses. Bills. Etc) it is fantastically complex. It is tremendously political. It is littered with rhetoric. It is highly impacted by what side of the isle a particular representative happens to be sitting on. And it is hugely influenced by countless people who place their political party way above their personal and potential vote.

Simple ideas that other countries have implemented work well in reducing harm. One of those ideas is a licensing system.

When it comes to proposed changes in the laws that govern the US - "simple ideas" do not exist. Nothing is simple when it involves the angst, hatred, and intolerance that our "leaders" display across the entire political body.

Peace,
Ceebpp

[_maklelan]

Having said the above already - early in the thread:

It seems clear to me that something needs to be done about gun control in the US. I simply and honestly have no idea what that something ought to be.

The research shows that we need a stronger ATF, we need laws that incentivize owners to keep guns locked up and report when they're stolen, we need a universal background check, we need consistent laws from state to state, we need better training and testing before licensing owners, we need longer waiting periods and separate permits for each gun purchased, we need better public access to mental health, and a variety of other things. This is not a mystery with no answer. There is a great deal of research that demonstrates what works and what does not. What will never work is shrugging our shoulders or insisting things are good enough.

A few more thoughts - in no particular order of importance:

I think about the constitution -
I think about the sport -
I think about domestic violence -
I think about gang wars -
I think about mentally ill people -
I think about accidents -
I think about rights that people have died to defend -
I think about people who want to murder other people -

I think about the potential dangers of removing guns from law abiding citizens.

I think about what the impact will really be - the real impact - that any law - of any kind - will have on people who don't obey laws.

Doesn't matter whether or not they obey the law if we can prevent them from getting guns. Years and years of rhetoric have people convinced that there is a black market for guns on every corner and in every nook and cranny of the country, but that's simply not true. We can significantly mitigate illegal gun trafficking and the availability of illegal guns. See the following:

https://tracetheguns.org/#

http://www.thetrace.org/2015/09/gun-law ... -research/

http://www.armedwithreason.com/debunkin ... n-control/

I think about things we have already made to be against the law and how that has had almost zero impact on the portion of people who have no interest in obeying laws.

I think about the probability of people who want to get an assault weapon - getting an assault weapon - no matter what the law is.

In short - this is a fantastically complex and deeply troubling issue/topic and I don't know what ought to be done - if anything - about it.

The solution is really not as amorphous and mysterious as some people make it seem. There are effective and informed solutions available, we just have the NRA dumping tens of millions of dollars a year into unilaterally impeding our attempts to implement them, since they will cut into their profits. They have paid congress to literally make a law prohibiting the government from funding research into gun violence, and they did it explicitly on the grounds that they didn't want any research to potentially threaten Second Amendment rights. That's really as complex as it gets.

I want to repeat a few things:

I have never owned any guns - I personally don't like them.
I am very ignorant and uninformed about the many types of guns - and I am just as ignorant and uninformed about the various potential degrees of danger and damage that each type of gun brings.

Lastly, I am disappointed in how this thread has evolved. I thought it had a chance to be a very informative and valuable discussion about a very complex topic. But - that's just my opinion.

Peace,
Ceeboo

If someone goes back through and reads the research I've provided, they'll be phenomenally well informed about the issue.

[_RockSlider]

I think you mean "moot," but no, it's not, since your uneducated and belligerent refusal to listen to reason regarding gun control contributes to the failure of our government to enact meaningful gun control legislation. It's your ideological outlook that enables the NRA to completely undermine our attempts to save lives.

Sorry for the horrible english/spelling Mak.

Hey, you know I keep coming around to believing you are a good guy. Do you really have to be rude and insulting to me? I poked a bit of fun at you getting caught with the feminist stuff but I don't think I've been rude and insulting to you?

[_RockSlider]

What weapons people may own and use is a question society has to decide.
...

Not sure yet if this was your last post ... but I really have no objections to what you've said there Themis.