A taste of Prager U

[_Xenophon]

Glad we see eye to eye, Ceeboo .

More seriously, I think I'd like to explore a bit on one of my points:

As a subnote to this I think it is interesting the focus on the "extremely" trend and not looking at how few responded as "only a little" or "not at all" (PDF warning).

Do you (or anyone wanting to answer) view someone who answered "very" to the question of pride instead of "extremely" as unpatriotic in some way? Or lacking in national identity somehow? Is patriotism or pride in country only a positive, is it possible to have too much? I ask because I really object to the framing that both specifically Shapiro and generally Gallup have applied to the survey answer.

I think I view it as a spectrum, where some pride in country is important to the collective. It can bind us together and cause us to work towards a common goal (although we might disagree on what the right goal is). Give us a rallying point, if you will. Too much, however, begins to strike me as more nationalism than patriotism; this kind of crushing anti-individualism that seeks to prevent people from raising legitimate concerns. It becomes a cudgel with which to beat our political opponents.

In case it isn't clear: I'm not accusing you of doing or thinking this Ceeboo, just speaking generally of my concerns around the language of "extreme pride" in country.

[_Ceeboo]

Glad we see eye to eye, Ceeboo .

Are you flirting with me?

More seriously, I think I'd like to explore a bit on one of my points:

As a subnote to this I think it is interesting the focus on the "extremely" trend and not looking at how few responded as "only a little" or "not at all" (PDF warning).

Do you (or anyone wanting to answer) view someone who answered "very" to the question of pride instead of "extremely" as unpatriotic in some way?

Absolutely not! In no way shape or form do I view that as unpatriotic - at all. As a matter of personal opinion, I believe that there are a wide variety of factors that can influence (and do influence) the level of pride that individual Americans have for their country.

Or lacking in national identity somehow?

Same answer.

Is patriotism or pride in country only a positive, is it possible to have too much? I ask because I really object to the framing that both specifically Shapiro and generally Gallup have applied to the survey answer.

You can object - no worries on my end.

In case it isn't clear: I'm not accusing you of doing or thinking this Ceeboo, just speaking generally of my concerns around the language of "extreme pride" in country.

I know you weren't accusing me - But I do appreciate the kind gesture all the same.

[_huckelberry]

To my ears Ben Shapiro's article built on proposals I have mixed reactions to. I am a long term Democrat whose views about patriotism were first shaped by JFK and Martin Luther King. I do not think I lost that completely though it was strained in the late 60s. It was stained as I learned more of our racial and international history.

I was amused by the proposal that 4th July celebrations lean right. I have enjoyed quite of few of those with my blue intact. I even enjoyed Pendleton roundup opening with a fellow on horse full gallop aroung the field, stars and strips held high streaming back , a great site. The Air force provided jet fly over to add to the drama. I can enjoy a good bit of patriotism. It is a personality thing I suppose that on the other hand, I think saying I am proud to be an American is silly. There are aspect of America I am proud of.

The thing in Bens article I could not relate to at all was the idea Democrats do not wish to continue the foundational myths and values America started with. This I feel quite sure is simply wrong.

[_Some Schmo]

The thing in Bens article I could not relate to at all was the idea Democrats do not wish to continue the foundational myths and values America started with. This I feel quite sure is simply wrong.

He paints a picture of clear-eyed Republicans idealizing freedom while pessimistic Democrats can't disentangle slavery from America, as though those are the fundamental ideologies of each party.

The problem with this kind of talk (other than the fact that it presents things in a BS way) is that it leads to the exact unbridgeable divide some people are apt to bemoan. If you're unrealistic about both parties, you're part of the problem. Hell, I'd think liberal ideology was a mental disorder too, if what they think it is was accurate. They don't represent it accurately, because they can't when they don't understand it. It's the comic book version of the left, dumbed down to go with pictures. Of course, that goes both ways; the left certainly has their version of this. It's just far more exaggerated on the right.

[_honorentheos]

Do you (or anyone wanting to answer) view someone who answered "very" to the question of pride instead of "extremely" as unpatriotic in some way? Or lacking in national identity somehow? Is patriotism or pride in country only a positive, is it possible to have too much? I ask because I really object to the framing that both specifically Shapiro and generally Gallup have applied to the survey answer.

In Plutarch's Moralia, the chapter titled "How to Tell A Flatterer from a Friend" captures some of my thoughts on the subject quite well.
http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com ... friend.htm

If patriotism is best understood as love of country and wanting to see us live up to our potential, I would argue a person who unquestioningly puts pride in the US as a mark of virtue should be viewed suspiciously. How does a person claim to love something that they lack the interest in it's well being that they would never be able to speak up and point out improvement where it's needed? There are certainly people on both sides who cry loudly about the state of the nation, either in a USA! USA! USA! pep-rally kind of excessive enthusiasm, or are mercilessly quick to fault her for every failure with no interest in seeing her rise above them. I doubt the sincerity of either's patriotism in the ways that count.

It would seem to me that the only real measure of patriotism that is worth much would be to look at what one does with their time and in their community.

[_Xenophon]

In Plutarch's Moralia, the chapter titled "How to Tell A Flatterer from a Friend" captures some of my thoughts on the subject quite well.
http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com ... friend.htm

If patriotism is best understood as love of country and wanting to see us live up to our potential, I would argue a person who unquestioningly puts pride in the US as a mark of virtue should be viewed suspiciously. How does a person claim to love something that they lack the interest in it's well being that they would never be able to speak up and point out improvement where it's needed? There are certainly people on both sides who cry loudly about the state of the nation, either in a USA! USA! USA! pep-rally kind of excessive enthusiasm, or are mercilessly quick to fault her for every failure with no interest in seeing her rise above them. I doubt the sincerity of either's patriotism in the ways that count.

It would seem to me that the only real measure of patriotism that is worth much would be to look at what one does with their time and in their community.

Thanks for the reference, Honor (curse you for adding more to my reading pile though). I think you have really eloquently hit on what bothered me so much of Shapiro's take on what the lack of extreme pride in our country meant. Appreciate you sharing that.

[_EAllusion]

The first annoying rhetorical move Shapiro makes in his article is he shifts from citing polling data in the present to discuss what Democrats and Republicans think to saying that wasn't always so by citing by two political figures. But Barack Obama, Democratic president less than two years ago, repeatedly used the kind of optimism about American themes that Shapiro attributes to Republican thinking. If JFK is sufficient to describe what Democrats thought in the 1960's, then why isn't Obama now?

It's probably true that those polling data would look different if you go far back enough understanding that data probably isn't good on that question in the time period we want to examine. My first guess is the disparity is due to a recent influx of authoritarian personalities prone to nationalist thinking flooding away from Democrats towards Republicans over the past few decades and even more markedly very recently. Republican culture is more nationalist now for sure. But his whole just-so story for why this is is based on air. Schmo I think actually nails it when he says, "He paints a picture of clear-eyed Republicans idealizing freedom while pessimistic Democrats can't disentangle slavery from America, as though those are the fundamental ideologies of each party."

This is particularly odd since the underlying polling data doesn't really allow for that kind of stark contrast anyway. The difference isn't large enough to underwrite that kind of gulf where Shapiro is going on about Democrats and Republicans raising children in radically different ways. He just makes that up.

The funny thing is there is a weird quirk in Republican culture where ostentatious displays of patriotism and hyper-defensiveness about criticism of America isn't uncommon, but what also isn't uncommon is incredibly vicious criticism of America as a rotten place. Both those themes are very common in the religious right in particular. No major natural disaster happens without major religious right figures chiming in to say that it was just desserts for America's awfulness. It's not even uncommon to see that in the same people. David Cross makes fun of this in this bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX1evRf4uh4

I'm not convinced that being the sort of person who says you are extremely proud of America or obsesses about politicians wearing American flag lapel pins is inherently representative of a virtue we want to cultivate.

[_canpakes]

Which leads to a certain question - just what is the national identity of the United States? How is that defined?

There was an article in Newsweek, by Ben Shapiro, that in my opinion speaks to this.

OK.

Are Democrats proud of being American? This sounds like a loaded question—who wouldn’t be proud of being American? But according to a new poll, there’s a serious dearth of pride among Democrats about the country. Gallup reports that just 32 percent of Democrats call themselves “extremely proud” of their national identity, compared with 74 percent of Republicans who say the same.

I notice that this article of Shapiro's addresses pride in national identity. What I'm asking about is what that national identity is or means. How would you answer that?

Regardless of Shapiro's focus being other than this question, what he has written prompts a few other questions:

Republicans tend to tell the American story in one way, Democrats in another. Republicans see the story of America as that of a nation conceived in freedom but flawed in its implementation of it—a nation constantly striving to live up to its founding vision...
Democrats, by contrast, see America as a country founded in slavery and bigotry, in repression and greed, perfected over time through public action.

Is either one of these more correct than the other? Why or why not?

For Republicans, the Civil War was an attempt to live up to the Constitution’s ideals; for Democrats, the Civil War was an attempt to rewrite the Constitution entirely. For Republicans, racism is a horrible part of our past and present, but we can work to rise above it; for Democrats, racism is a part of our American DNA, as Barack Obama put it.

Is either one of these more correct than the other? Why or why not?

This has significant ramifications in terms of patriotic feeling... Democrats are only proud when the president is a Democrat ...

There is actually no basis in the poll results for Shapiro to construct this conclusion. He's basically pulling this one out of his arse. ; )

Xenophon makes an interesting observation:

I know that personally I have a hard time viewing "pride" with a positive connotation. Perhaps it is in my upbringing but I was always warned heavily to avoid hubris and for some reason that just tainted the word for me.

I have to agree with this, for a couple of reasons. First, it doesn't seem to make sense to take pride in something unless you're also willing to take some responsibility for it. Otherwise, taking pride in something is nonsensical if one just sits back and concocts an image of the thing to be proud of that s/he wants to attach to, in order to satisfy a need within their own ego. "I'm an American, so I'm proud of America" is a fairly useless construct.

But, taking responsibility means working to make the thing that you're proud of better - hopefully, better than you found it. Doing so requires an honest look at the rough edges and sometimes ugly flaws that need to be addressed in order to improve the whole. It means diving in and digging into what needs attention - and a little love - to bring out the best in the system.

Think of it like having kids. I'm sure that there may have been times when your own children may have done some things that you weren't especially proud of, but that doesn't mean that you didn't love your child or were not vested in doing your best by them ... regardless of occasional tough times.

Granted, the fringe on both sides is mired in finding problems for problems sake, but I can't flaw Democrats who love their country but might not be as proud as they feel they could otherwise be in where it stands at any given moment. I trust their position more so than the Republican who claims pride their country while claiming that any critique is unpatriotic. It's a false patriotism to merely claiming pride but not having the guts or commitment to work on and polish the gem that this nation can represent to people all over the world, while cutting down others that would be willing to take on that challenge.

Last, I find Shapiro's overall slant a little odd, given that Trump rode into the White House on the premise that America was fundamentally flawed or wounded, and needed to be made 'great again'. How could that need exist in the minds of Republicans while they simultaneously fault Democrats for being willing to identify and address issues that Republicans are willing only to gloss over in a conflicted attitude about the need to be 'great again'?

After all of this, there's no clue offered up by Shapiro as to what our national identity means or stands for. Mere pride isn't that answer. What did this nation represent to the rest of the world? What do we want to be, and what are we willing to sacrifice to get there? What is it that is important to us and what defines our destiny? These are the questions that I'm curious about when I ask about national identity.

Ironically, one aspect of what America used to represent - that of a land of opportunity for immigrants - might just need to be discarded in the age of Trump, being that immigrants are defined by that political cohort as undesirable, and the cause of all of America's woes.

[_Analytics]

So, as I have mentioned on the board before, I am a huge Dennis Prager fan (I adore him and listen to his national radio show quite often when I'm driving between noon and 3pm) but for whatever reason, while I knew it existed, I never really paid much attention to Prager U (Currently, there are over 200 videos and counting - with over a billion views and counting)

over the last few days, I have been watching some of these videos. Like a few of my favorite vinyl record albums from long ago, I think some of the videos are fantastic while others on the album aren't as good, in my opinion.

Thus far, there are a few that I thought were, at the very least, interesting. And in some ways, they reminded me of some of the discussions on this board, so I thought I would share them. Here are a couple:

This first one is on "intersectionality" - (Ben Shapiro does it)
Here it is:

https://youtu.be/rc7VUoytoU4

This one is a guy on the streets of New York who asks random people "Do you have any Republican friends" - (I understand the real possibility that they only show certain interviews and that the video might be comprised of very selective clips with a very specific purpose - but, even if this is the case (as a conservative), I still found the video to be mind-blowing on several levels.

Here it is:

https://youtu.be/VKYfarmt-N4

And then there is this one on white privilege - It's made by a guy who does documentaries who went to a "White Privilege Conference" that was held in Kansas City. (You have to at least watch the guy at around the 2:30 mark where he "extends his white privilege on to her" - his wife)

https://youtu.be/41rwBgrWmUs

And finally, this is from Ami Horowitz - he interviews a UC Irvine student who had the American flag removed on campus by writing a resolution that passed.

I was blown away again. Here it is:

https://youtu.be/up3GzbLjPcc

Those are the ones, so far, that I found to be (again, at the very least) interesting.

Watch if you want - pass if you're not interested.

I should add - there are over 80 videos that are currently on YouTube's "restricted/censored" section. Thus, the views are not available in the public square.

Wow! I didn't realize how unenlightened, unAmerican, unethical, lazy, close-minded, anti-white-male, and in general stupid Demicrats actually are. I sure am glad I don't have any Democrats as friends! Thanks for educating me about these terrible human beings, Prager U!

[_Some Schmo]

Wow! I didn't realize how unenlightened, unAmerican, unethical, lazy, close-minded, anti-white-male, and in general stupid Demicrats actually are. I sure am glad I don't have any Democrats as friends! Thanks for educating me about these terrible human beings, Prager U!

Yep, thank the great god in heaven we have PragerU to tell us how awful liberals are. I'm not sure what else they could do to help heal the unbridgeable divide. I mean, they're doing their best, aren't they?