Liberals get violent when their claims are challenged

[_Morley]

My goodness. I read further down in your composition. I"ll respond to this:

2. Buddhism was a minority religion in Viet Nam. Viet Nam had a population of around 16 million at the time, composed of a number of religions, including about 1.5 million Catholics and 3 or 4 million Buddhists. The rest, including Confucians, Cao Dai, Hoa Hao, animists and Taoists, outnumbered both.

Most, if not all, demographic estimates list Buddhism as the dominant religious belief system in Vietnam, although, due to the unique nature of Vietnamese Buddhist practice, exact membership figures vary. Recent estimates given by Vietnamese sources seem to indicate that, of Vietnam's 20 million religionists, 50%—10 million—were registered Buddhist "followers".[2][14] Other estimates may vary greatly depending on methodology; some claim that between three-quarters to half of Vietnam's population are at least "nominally Buddhist",[15][16][17] whereas others give figures as low as 9%.[1] Scholars have argued that the higher figures would indicate that, even if they fail to identify themselves as followers, a preponderance of Vietnamese at least define their spiritual needs using a Buddhist world view, regardless of differences in practice.[13]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Vietnam)

[_Morley]

The historical facts are that the NVA was destroyed as an effective fighting force at Tet, and the Viet Cong were annihilated (I know of no serious scholarly historical source that denies this). Yes, they still existed, but they never recovered from Tet. The NVA took on most of the fighting from 1968 onwards. Your anecdotes (man, would I like to do the B.G.Burkett thing now and do a FOIA request on your military records), assuming they are even legitimate anecdotes, notwithstanding. We know this to be the case because of substantial historical documentation and post-Viet Nam war scholarship.

Which is it? The Viet Cong were "annihilated" or they still existed?

[_Morley]

http://www.viet-myths.net/BuiTin.htm

Ahh. One of those sites that want to correct history. Is this the source of your scholarship?



edit: From the home page of viet-myths.net:

"The Vietnam War was mis-reported by the Media, mis-recorded by the Historians, mis-taught in our schools and mis-applied in addressing policy decisions."

[_Morley]

Your anecdotes (man, would I like to do the B.G.Burkett thing now and do a FOIA request on your military records), assuming they are even legitimate anecdotes, notwithstanding.

Sure, Droopy. I'd be happy to send a scan of my DD-214 to a neutral party.

[_Droopy]

My goodness. I read further down in your composition. I"ll respond to this:

2. Buddhism was a minority religion in Viet Nam. Viet Nam had a population of around 16 million at the time, composed of a number of religions, including about 1.5 million Catholics and 3 or 4 million Buddhists. The rest, including Confucians, Cao Dai, Hoa Hao, animists and Taoists, outnumbered both.

Most, if not all, demographic estimates list Buddhism as the dominant religious belief system in Vietnam, although, due to the unique nature of Vietnamese Buddhist practice, exact membership figures vary. Recent estimates given by Vietnamese sources seem to indicate that, of Vietnam's 20 million religionists, 50%—10 million—were registered Buddhist "followers".[2][14] Other estimates may vary greatly depending on methodology; some claim that between three-quarters to half of Vietnam's population are at least "nominally Buddhist",[15][16][17] whereas others give figures as low as 9%.[1] Scholars have argued that the higher figures would indicate that, even if they fail to identify themselves as followers, a preponderance of Vietnamese at least define their spiritual needs using a Buddhist world view, regardless of differences in practice.[13]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Vietnam)

http://www.urbandharma.org/udnl2/nl021704.html

Yes...Wiki...

The confusion here probably lies in the fact that much Buddhism in Vietnam was neither monolithic or of a pure Indian variety, but a synthesis of Buddhism and other religions, including the dominant religion of Viet Nam, Confucianism. If one counts those who practice a purer version of Indian Buddhism, then you will probably get my lower numbers. If you include all the snycrestistic varieties, then you can probably get the Wiki numbers.

The Snycretistic forms are going to have large variations in emphasis and deemphasis, however, some closer to Buddhism, and some only partaking of aspects of it. With so much fusion and syncretism, one can freely extrapolate as to who is a "Buddhist" and who isn't.

I'm willing to accept Buddism as the majority religion in war era Viet Nam if by that one means "more or less."

Even so, that doesn't change the history of facts of the matter regarding them and their relationship to the Diem government, and the fact that Diem's concern was not anti-Buddhist prejudice per se, but concern with the radicalized, communist infiltrated Buddhists in and around Saigon and Hue.

I don't know exactly what game you're playing here, Morley, but the cause was lost long, long ago.

[_Droopy]

Your anecdotes (man, would I like to do the B.G.Burkett thing now and do a FOIA request on your military records), assuming they are even legitimate anecdotes, notwithstanding.

Sure, Droopy. I'd be happy to send a scan of my DD-214 to a neutral party.

That's fine. I'm only reacting to the well established fact that the vast majority of those who testified at the infamous Winter Solider investigation were phony soldiers, either having never been in the military at all, or having never actually been in Viet Nam or seen action there if they had been. This seems to have been, and continued to be after the war, a problem among its most vorciferous critics who claimed actual military experience.

In any case, your single, isolated, anecdotal claims of your experience there (such as it may have been) cannot possibly be used to overturn a mountain of established documentary facts.

It just doesn't work that way.

[_Morley]

Sure, Droopy. I'd be happy to send a scan of my DD-214 to a neutral party.

That's fine. I'm only reacting to the well established fact that the vast majority of those who testified at the infamous Winter Solider investigation were phony soldiers, either having never been in the military at all, or having never actually been in Viet Nam or seen action there if they had been. This seems to have been, and continued to be after the war, a problem among its most vorciferous critics who claimed actual military experience.

In any case, your single, isolated, anecdotal claims of your experience there (such as it may have been) cannot possibly be used to overturn a mountain of established documentary facts.

It just doesn't work that way.

I'm not testifying against the Vietnam War. I'm not sure you can point out where I've ever been a critic of the war. I am objecting to your version of the 'facts.'

[_Morley]

I don't know exactly what game you're playing here, Morley, but the cause was lost long, long ago.

The game I'm playing is "get the friggin facts straight."

[_Morley]

That's fine. I'm only reacting to the well established fact that the vast majority of those who testified at the infamous Winter Solider investigation were phony soldiers, either having never been in the military at all, or having never actually been in Viet Nam or seen action there if they had been.

That's not what this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation) says (3rd paragraph under Media coverage):

The Detroit Free Press printed several stories about the event, including comments from the military. This included confirmation by the Pentagon that WSI participants investigated by reporters were indeed Vietnam veterans. The Pentagon's denials of large scale U.S. activity in Laos was reported as well, until reporters learned from several marines not involved with WSI that operations in Laos had been conducted.


I know, Wikipedia, again. Sigh. You guys really need to get your version of the story onto all of those 'lame stream' media sites.

[_Droopy]

The Detroit Free Press printed several stories about the event, including comments from the military. This included confirmation by the Pentagon that WSI participants investigated by reporters were indeed Vietnam veterans. The Pentagon's denials of large scale U.S. activity in Laos was reported as well, until reporters learned from several marines not involved with WSI that operations in Laos had been conducted.

More of the left's favorite traditional technique long favored to win debates -lying - unfortunately, and long, long debunked.

http://www.amazon.com/Stolen-Valor-Viet ... 096670360X

http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpage ... 6201143824

http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpage ... 6184347380

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArt ... RTID=30005

This long, lost, pathetic cause cannot be resurrected by appeal to unknown true believing left-wing Wiki revisionists who think they can rewrite known history and alter facts at will for the intellectually hazy public educated American citizenry. Many will be duped, but the actually educated and knowledgeable (and intellectually honest, a key prerequisite) will not.

The Wiki stuff is nothing more than warmed over anti-war movement nostalgia for a cause they lost decades ago to the truth, but to which, as committed leftists, they will not be reconciled (the "plumbers" stuff is a hoot. Makes me feel young again).

The bald prevaricating and shilling for the ideological Cause in the Wiki article is a bit shocking, even for these folks. As the serious scholarship and research that does exist makes clear (and as Burkett takes an entire book to make clear), many of the soldiers in the WSI were frauds, there to make a point and win a political/ideological struggle at any moral cost. That is the history as we now know it.