Sex Before Marriage

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_The CCC
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _The CCC »

Maxine Waters wrote:I think waitressing pays better than teaching and you work fewer hours.

You don't think.

Starting Salary: $41,259 in California for teachers.

Entry Level Salary for waitresses $23,919 in California.
_EAllusion
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _EAllusion »

DoubtingThomas wrote:Agree. I didn't say the contrary.


Why do you keep bringing up their relative attractiveness?

Coercion or manipulation is something else and should be punished with a least some prison. However, it is the male students that make the first move, not the teachers. Psychology Today article says, "vast majority of adult-child sexual liaisons are consensual. In some, the under-age girls are the initiators and pursuers. And sometimes the men wind up in prison". I think it is highly likely that male students are the initiators. Young men only care about sex, and it makes sense in evolutionary biology.


I think you may have missed my point. A student-teacher relationship inherently involves the teacher having power over the student. Even if that power is never exercised, it is implicitly there informing all interactions. Because of this, there is inherent potential for coercion in any sexual relationship. This makes it worse than just some random 20 and 16 year old hooking up. This is a factor I think the law should consider. Same for a supervisor-employee relationship or any dynamic were power is substantially unequal in a relationship where statutory rape laws are implicated.

Statutory rape laws are tough because you have to draw a legal line somewhere and people have individual sexual and cognitive development curves that make for a fuzzy, inconsistent boundary for when a relationship is consensual. I have no strong feelings about 16 or 15 as an age of consent, but I do know that you have to draw the line somewhere and criminal justice penalties do become appropriate within the accepted legal definition. As said before, I am strongly opposed to lengthy prison sentences for statutory rape of teenagers.

Your belief about the teenaged boys being the initiators because young males just think about sex (whereas young women apparently don't) is based on sexist stereotypes that can't be used as a basis for legal judgments. Young women think a lot of about sex too, sex is not some all-consuming force in every young males life, and dimorphism in interest in sex is not inherently predicted by evolutionary biology. That supposition is why evo-psych gets such a bad reputation.

The idea that 16 or 17 year olds can't consent to sex isn't back up by biological evidence


I don't think biological evidence can even straightforwardly weigh on that topic in the way you are asserting. Consent is a philosophical and legal concept surrounding the voluntariness of a permissive decision. Biology doesn't have a clear answer for when a decision is voluntary. As such, it no more proves that sex is consensual around the age of 16 than it proves that credit card agreements are consensual at that age. More is needed and whatever answer we get is always going to be fuzzy because of individual developmental differences and the factors that make up voluntariness existing on a gradient.

A University of Minnesota book Harmful to Minors (endorsed by pediatrician) argues "America’s attempts to protect children from sex are worse than ineffectual." https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-divisio ... -to-minors

Please note I haven't read the book.


I would agree with that.
_Xenophon
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _Xenophon »

Good points, Honor. I'll apologize as I technically began the line of questioning towards DT. I would point out that I did acknowledge that this was a big problem but I'm glad there seem to be some people involved in getting that changed. This is the kind of archaic thinking that allows the Warren Jeffs of the world to get by and that obviously needs to change.

That said, this was kind of the point that I was trying to make with DT, that his relative creepiness will interfere with almost any conversation on this topic because there are implications in his language that really shouldn't be left uncorrected, thus mine and others' questions to him.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Maxine Waters
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _Maxine Waters »

You don't think.

Starting Salary: $41,259 in California for teachers.

Entry Level Salary for waitresses $23,919 in California.


It's hard to measure how much waitresses earn in tips. Being a teacher is more of charity service or calling than a career. One fellow teacher in the lounge said it best, "If this is glorified babysitting than someone owes me a lot of money." How much would a cash pay babysitter charge to control and entertain 35 kids/hour?
“There were mothers who took this [Rodney King LA riots] as an opportunity to take some milk, to take some bread, to take some shoes ... They are not crooks.”

This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

honorentheos wrote:As to DoubtingThomas being a creeper, I don't know that any amount of discussion can sort out the hows and wherefores of it. The dude is a creeper. He has a broken relationship to sex. He has the personal responsibility to recognize this and do something about it. Probably involving a professional.


A creeper for suggesting that 20 year old teachers shouldn't go to prison for having sex with 17 year old boys? Are the TYT reporters creepers too? Are my co-workers creepers too for laughing when I showed them the news story?

Please don't be so paranoid, I was in no way suggesting that attractiveness makes a rape justifiable, if that is what you are thinking. Read Apophenia, the tendency to see meaningless patterns.

The boys stated repeatedly that is was consensual, I just point to "attractiveness" because many 16 and 17 year old boys want to sleep with attractive women. It's just human nature, but attractiveness doesn't make in consensual, what makes it consensual is the word of the boys saying it was consensual. Goddammit!

EAllusion wrote:Your belief about the teenaged boys being the initiators because young males just think about sex (whereas young women apparently don't) is based on sexist stereotypes that can't be used as a basis for legal judgments.


Okay,

Do we have any evidence that female teachers are the initiators most of the time? So far I only read the male student was the initiator. Why would the teacher be the initiator with a high risk of the student reporting her?

EAllusion wrote: As said before, I am strongly opposed to lengthy prison sentences for statutory rape of teenagers.


I don't think me and you disagree on much.

EAllusion wrote:I don't think biological evidence can even straightforwardly weigh on that topic in the way you are asserting. Consent is a philosophical and legal concept surrounding the voluntariness of a permissive decision. Biology doesn't have a clear answer for when a decision is voluntary. As such, it no more proves that sex is consensual around the age of 16 than it proves that credit card agreements are consensual at that age. More is needed and whatever answer we get is always going to be fuzzy because of individual developmental differences and the factors that make up voluntariness existing on a gradient.


Did you know that other apes don't rape? It's true, read
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... ilia-exist

I do believe "consent" is a scientific question.

EAllusion wrote:Why do you keep bringing up their relative attractiveness?


To make it more emotional, we both agree 20 year old girls shouldn't go to prison for having sex with 17 year olds. I am realizing that many like honorentheos are simply imagining things I am not saying. Many like honorentheos believe I said attractiveness makes rape acceptable. Just nonsense.

By the way, the TYT reporters also pointed to attractiveness, but didn't get in trouble for that. Why I am being judged so harshly?

Xenophon wrote:That said, this was kind of the point that I was trying to make with DoubtingThomas, that his relative creepiness will interfere with almost any conversation on this topic


I have now made it very clear, I don't deserve to be treated like this. This is so wrong.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 6 times in total.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Just for the record, I think you guys are reading DT wrong in terms of "creepiness" factor. I'll explain later if I need to.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_honorentheos
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _honorentheos »

DoubtingThomas wrote:I have now made it very clear, I don't deserve to be treated like this. This is so wrong.

It's wrong to tell you that your posting is creepy?

DT, I'm saying it because it's how you come across to me and apparently I'm not alone.

You post a lot about how you are a good Mormon who never did anything sexual with your girlfriend. Setting aside your comparative ages mentioned in this thread, I've yet to see you post in a way that doesn't make sex into something that is unhealthy. You clearly lack a healthy perspective on the subject. So even on topics like you presented in the OP, you couldn't engage in a discussion that didn't reflect this. Consent isn't part of the question when it comes to relationships between people in authority and those subject to that authority. It doesn't matter even if it were an 18 year old HS student initiating contact that leads to sex with a consenting female teacher, attractive or otherwise. Relegating sex to this type of relationship dynamic is broken behavior. Justifying it as a topic because it's the stuff of hormonal immature boy fantasies and locker room talk isn't actually justifying it but highlighting it's categorical problematic nature.

Your view of sex is damaged. You may be 17, immature, and fantasizing about why such things never happened to you. I don't know. But you do deserve to be exposed to the reality of your posting behavior. It's the first condition of developing a healthy understanding of sex, and I seriously think you need to acknowledge this.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

honorentheos wrote:You post a lot about how you are a good Mormon who never did anything sexual with your girlfriend. .


I can only remember sharing it once when I was 16. She is not my girlfriend anymore, that was a long time ago. My current girlfriend is another girl.

To put it in context I shared the story of when I was 16 in response to MeDotOrg's comment "If you and your partner are having sex before you are 18, one of you could end up doing something illegal, unless you have the same birthday." I told him "Thank goodness we(both of us) were good Mormons and never had sex. I did fear sin. Had we not been good Mormons I probably would have been arrested and been added on the sex offender list for the rest of my life."

honorentheos wrote: I've yet to see you post in a way that doesn't make sex into something that is unhealthy. You clearly lack a healthy perspective on the subject. So even on topics like you presented in the OP, you couldn't engage in a discussion that didn't reflect this. Consent isn't part of the question when it comes to relationships between people in authority and those subject to that authority.


Perhaps I need to repeat myself again. I wrote in the other thread, "I agree they need to get fired, but sending them to prison is unnecessary."

honorentheos wrote:Your view of sex is damaged. You may be 17, immature, and fantasizing about why such things never happened to you. I don't know. But you do deserve to be exposed to the reality of your posting behavior. It's the first condition of developing a healthy understanding of sex, and I seriously think you need to acknowledge this.


Okay honorentheos, I haven't revealed my age and I am not fantasizing about having sex with HS teachers. I did once wrote that I wish I had sex when I had the chance with a girl I was not even dating, but didn't because I was a god-fearing Mormon. I wrote that because I came to the realization that life is short and we must enjoy life. But I am not sure what that has anything to do with the OP. Oh, or is it because sex requires a long-term love commitment? Is that why have distorted view of sex?

So please tell me with details what am I exactly saying that is unhealthy? Can you please give me exact quotes and explain?
Last edited by Guest on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Jersey Girl wrote:Just for the record, I think you guys are reading DoubtingThomas wrong in terms of "creepiness" factor. I'll explain later if I need to.


Thanks Jersey Girl.

I hope honorentheos gives me the exact quotes of my unhealthy behavior.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Sex Before Marriage

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

DT just seems like a regressed or sheltered Mormon male. I always thought a lot of Mormon males were behind the social power curve by 5 or 10 years.

DT, you're fine. Don't let the hatahs bate wit da hate.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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