The war against individual freedoms

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_Markk
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:
Dude, I did not intend to say that we live in a police state. OK? I should have been more precise, since we are in one of those conversations where people are going to look for any bit to jump all over.

Let me edit my statement to this:

". . . thus contributing to our emerging police state."

OK?


Fair enough...

Will taking away guns from the people, while adding might to law enforcement...equally contribute to a emerging police state?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _Markk »

Morley wrote:
Markk wrote:But anyway...please explain and give me some examples of how we are a police state.


Segments of society are militarized with flak jackets and AR-15s. Our running war is a constant that we all accept. Private militias train themselves against a confrontation with their own government. Metal detectors are at the entrances of all federal and many local government buildings. Even relatively small police forces have SWAT teams and armored vehicles. Our backpacks are screened, and we’re patted down before we fly. Now we're talking about arming teachers and fortifying our schools against fellow citizens who wish to randomly shoot our children. I wouldn’t fault anyone for hinting that we’re adopting elements of a police state.


I'll ask you the same question I asked Kish...will taking away weapons from the people lend to a police state?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _Markk »

Themis wrote:
Markk wrote:He said... "the same military that offloads its old weaponry and armor on local law enforcement, thus contributing to our police state."


While your definition of police state may be accurate you may want to consider trying to understand what he is trying to say then argue over a definition.

Another question, and maybe more pertinent to gun control..."would banning guns contribute to this so-called police state just as law enforcement receiving surplus inventory?"


No, a police state is more about the government then about law enforcement and military. Banning guns does not mean police state, and modern armies have far better weapons and Armour against the kind of guns people can buy.


Do you really believe that disarming civilians does not lead to a police state?

Kish knows he was not clear, and I'll take his word that he just got sloppy in projecting his point...we all do that here. But I am not naïve enough to believe some here and many across are nation believe we have a police state...as your post expresses. I do not believe we are, and in fact I would argue we are pretty much the freest large nation on earth..we have a target on our back and unfortunately, that demands security in our lives.

There is a fine line between complete chaos, and freedom...and I think as a nation we juggle that pretty well.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_subgenius
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _subgenius »

Themis wrote:....modern armies have far better weapons and Armour against the kind of guns people can buy.

do you believe this what the founding fathers envisioned as a consequence of the 2nd amendment?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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_Themis
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _Themis »

Markk wrote:Do you really believe that disarming civilians does not lead to a police state?


It hasn't in many European nations, most of which are full democracies. The US has lots of guns but has still fallen into the classification as a flawed democracy. So disarming civilians does not itself lead to a police state. Well armed civilians has not stopped many nations from becoming police states and autocratic.

I would argue we are pretty much the freest large nation on earth..we have a target on our back and unfortunately, that demands security in our lives.


What do you mean by large nation? Is that just countries with population over say 100 million?

There is a fine line between complete chaos, and freedom...and I think as a nation we juggle that pretty well.


In regards to guns what would you change?
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_Kishkumen
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _Kishkumen »

Markk wrote:I'll ask you the same question I asked Kish...will taking away weapons from the people lend to a police state?


I would prefer that everyone have fewer guns and use them less, including law enforcement.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Themis
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:
Themis wrote:....modern armies have far better weapons and Armour against the kind of guns people can buy.

do you believe this what the founding fathers envisioned as a consequence of the 2nd amendment?


I don't think they envisioned out time or circumstances, and if we want to keep a lot more people being killed we have to limit people's access to most of what modern armies have access to.
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_honorentheos
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _honorentheos »

Kishkumen wrote:
Markk wrote:I'll ask you the same question I asked Kish...will taking away weapons from the people lend to a police state?


I would prefer that everyone have fewer guns and use them less, including law enforcement.

Agreed. There has been an arms race between LE and what's available to the public that influences the discussion. Recall the Battle of North Hollywood? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Standard issue sidearms carried by most local patrol officers at the time were 9 mm pistols or .38 Special revolvers; some patrol cars were also equipped with a 12-gauge shotgun. Phillips and Mătăsăreanu carried illegally modified fully automatic Norinco Type 56 S-1s (an AK-47 variant), a Bushmaster XM15 Dissipator, and a HK-91 rifle with high capacity drum magazines as well as a Beretta 92FS pistol. The bank robbers wore mostly homemade, heavy plated body armor which successfully protected them from handgun rounds and shotgun pellets fired by the responding officers. A police SWAT team eventually arrived bearing sufficient firepower, and they commandeered an armored truck to evacuate the wounded. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 and other semi-automatic rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their firepower in preparation for similar situations in the future.[3] An officer was heard on the LAPD police frequency approximately 10-15 minutes into the shootout, warning other officers that they should "not stop [the getaway vehicle], they've got automatic weapons, there's nothing we have that can stop them."

That narrative and others like it are feeding the feverish concerns behind the need to be heavily armed out and about on the street. Militarized police units are part of the price we're paying for a militarized public.
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_DoubtingThomas
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Markk wrote:
Do you really believe that disarming civilians does not lead to a police state?



I am not sure how that would make a difference. Guns are nothing compared to military weapons.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: The war against individual freedoms

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Kishkumen wrote:
I would prefer that everyone have fewer guns and use them less, including law enforcement.


Yes. See future stun gun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKWVrXKbn0

Future weapons are going to make deadly weapons unnecessary. All we have to do is improve the stun guns to make them more effective.
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