Worst President in History

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_ajax18
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _ajax18 »

Your position(s) on immigration is antithetical to what traditional Republican conservatism used to be.


Really? Even GWB said he believed we should enforce our borders. He never got anything done about it but he never called illegal immigration an "act of love," the way his brother did. Mitt Romney took a lot of grief over his platform of everify and self deportation. Mitt has lost my support but he didn't have an open borders platform the way the Democrat party does.

Trump represents a wing of modern conservatism that only really blossomed after conservative Democrats shifted into the Republican party.


Because of his position on trade and American manufacturing. That's how he broke the blue wall in the rust belt.

You are a perfect example of this. You very much are a traditional West Virginia Democrat circa 1961 who would find Republican's traditional friendliness to immigration due to the nexus of business interests and liberty-based philosophy to be unacceptable.


Really? I'd be among the people who voted to continue social security, welfare, and the rise of disability?

Regarding Trump, he's very unconservative on a whole raft of issues beyond trade.


like what? You haven't shown me anything yet. You implied during the primaries that he was a closet democrat hiding in conservative campaign rhetoric. He's not.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_EAllusion
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _EAllusion »

ajax18 wrote:
Really? Even GWB said he believed we should enforce our borders.


Every single Democrat politician believes we should "enforce our borders." The idea that people don't favor your highly restrictive and cruel approaches to immigration policy don't believe in "enforcing our borders" is a strawman. Almost no one thinks there should be zero border enforcement.

Republicans (and conservatives) used to favor a much looser approach to immigration policy because 1) they were more inclined to the moral arguments that underlie more open immigration policy and 2) business interests Republicans are aligned with tend to favor more open immigration policy because it promotes a flow of labor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBWUOOzuWIY

Because of his position on trade and American manufacturing. That's how he broke the blue wall in the rust belt.


There was no blue wall. How do you think George W. Bush won the electoral college while losing the popular vote?

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... blue-wall/

The idea of the "blue wall" built into the electoral map is an artifact of how the national vote has happened to have gone in recent years rather than a consequence of underlying demography. When people believed in the blue wall myth, they were looking at the last 6 presidential elections before the most recent one. That's looking at a time-frame where Democrats have easily won four popular votes, lost one narrowly, and essentially tied the sixth. Lo and behold, the average of those is a blue looking map. In other words, "the blue wall" is just what happens when Democrats win the national vote by the margins they have rather than because they start out with a built in edge in a 50/50 election. Last time we had a 50/50 election, the Republican won the map.

The conservative Democrats shifting into the Republican party I'm referring to is the Southern realignment after anti-civil rights Democrats gradually shifted into the Republican party starting as early as the 1950's and going all the way through to recent years. They brought with them racial animus and xenophobia that has made modern conservatism much more anti-immigration than it used to be.

Trump is from a conservative tradition in America from Know-Nothings to George Wallace to Pat Buchanan, but he represents them taking power over a very different set of conservatives.

Really? I'd be among the people who voted to continue social security, welfare, and the rise of disability?
Yes. You voted for exploding our debt despite ample warning that was what your vote represented and you claiming to care about fiscal responsibility a lot. That's because the issues that really motivate you aren't that. You are an example of the great realignment. In fact, Donald Trump campaigned specifically on protecting entitlements, which of course could've been a Trumpian lie but nonetheless is what he says he supports, because he comes from the exact tradition you are mocking with this line.

like what?


Rule of law, fiscal responsibility, NATO, Russia, gun control, corporate favoritism, immigration...

Part of the problem here is that because he's an oily conman and currently is in political alliance with plutocrats in exchange for protecting him from legal consequences for his corruption, you can find him behind any number of positions and what he thinks isn't necessarily what his administration is doing. So you have to be careful to draw distinctions. But that's a nice start.
_Gunnar
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _Gunnar »

ajax18 wrote:The debt is so huge after Obama that I doubt they'll ever pay it down. We could still get rid of social welfare programs and be back in the black in no time. The people robbing from our children and grandchildren are the ones collecting social security and disability.


The annual deficit decreased year by year during the Obama administration, so it is outrageously dishonest to blame Obama for the current huge size and enormous rate of growth of the national debt. Meanwhile, annual deficits under Trump will soon exceed one trillion dollars, and the national debt is growing faster than ever.
White House press aides are claiming President Donald Trump’s budget contains trillions in “deficit reduction,” when it actually calls for larger deficits for the next several years and would add $7 trillion to the national debt over 10 years.

Let’s start with what the president actually proposed. Page 117 of the White House budget released Feb. 12 contains the “Budget Totals” summary, including the proposed annual deficits (which we have highlighted). It shows a deficit growing from $665 billion last fiscal year to $873 billion in the current fiscal year (which began Oct. 1), and from there to $984 billion next fiscal year, and $987 billion the year after. It shows a total of just under $7.1 trillion in cumulative annual deficits over 10 years.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Some Schmo
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _Some Schmo »

I saw this comment in a YouTube thread that made me laugh:

George Washington: I cannot tell a lie
Donald Trump: I cannot tell the truth
Trump voter: I cannot tell the difference
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Gunnar
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _Gunnar »

Some Schmo wrote:I saw this comment in a YouTube thread that made me laugh:

George Washington: I cannot tell a lie
Donald Trump: I cannot tell the truth
Trump voter: I cannot tell the difference

This is blazingly obvious to most people other than Trump voters.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Some Schmo
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _Some Schmo »

Gunnar wrote:...so it is outrageously dishonest to blame Obama for the current huge size and enormous rate of growth of the national debt.

ajax doesn't give a crap about the debt. He's just arguing to argue, blindly defending Drumpf, probably parroting BS Hannity told him.

It is glaringly obvious ajax loves Drumpf because they share racist sentiment, and that's it. Drumpf could ask to screw ajax's wife and ajax would say, "Enjoy yourself. Just make sure you get that wall started."
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_EAllusion
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _EAllusion »

The economy is good right now in terms of unemployment and GDP growth. This is theoretically when annual deficits should be shrinking, not expanding. Moreoever, Republicans bucked the vast majority of economists and argued in passing the tax bill that it would more than pay for itself through increased tax receipts from the economic growth it would cause.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _Some Schmo »

Gunnar wrote:
George Washington: I cannot tell a lie
Donald Trump: I cannot tell the truth
Trump voter: I cannot tell the difference

This is blazingly obvious to most people other than Trump voters.

I remember during the election a friend of mine being an enthusiastic Drumpf supporter. (I may have mentioned this story here before, but I'm still astounded by it 2 years later). I found this out about my friend just as the story about the Trump University scam was in full bloom, and everyone watching now had definitive proof the douche was a con artist. I said to my friend, "What about all the people he scammed out of thousands of dollars for a fake education?" My friend, amazingly, said, "Well, they should have known better."

So, not only did he blame the victims, he also seemed to ignore Drumpf's crimes. I said, "Well, his voters are now being scammed. Don't you think you should know better?"

It was another of those times when I confront him on his own logic and he changes the subject (usually, he'll make a joke as a distraction). This is a regular thing.

At least, these days, my friend admits, "Yeah, he's not a good man." That's actually progress.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Brackite
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _Brackite »

But DJT hasn't nominated a prochoice abortion candidate like Beck warned us, he hasn't pulled the rug out from under those of us who want the southern border enforced, and he hasn't raised our taxes either.


I disagree with the notion that Trump hasn't raised our taxes. President Trump has imposed tariffs. Link Link
And Justice Gorsuch on the Supreme Court is more of a McConnell accomplishment than a Trump accomplishment.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_EAllusion
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Re: Worst President in History

Post by _EAllusion »

I think Ajax is correct that while Trump is personally pro-choice and couldn't care less about the culture war issues that animate the religious right, he's struck a bargain with them to hand over court appointments to them. That couldn't happen if Trump didn't let it. McConnell engineered the situation that is allowing a large a far--right influx into the courts by obstructing Obama and the Federalist Society is curating the picks, but that can't happen without Trump's blessing.
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