Sexism at the US Open

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

So, I was curious about Ramos' umpiring history. I googled 'Carlos Ramos umpire history' and this was the result:

http://larrybrownsports.com/tennis/umpi ... ams/463180

Here’s a look at some of Ramos’ history:

– In May 2016 at the French Open, Ramos asked Venus to tell her coach to stop giving hand signals. Venus defended herself and said she wasn’t cheating or looking at her coach.

- In 2017 at the French Open, Novak Djokovic was given a fault on his serve by Carlos Ramos for time violations. He then received a code violation for unsportsmanlike conduct after yelling.

– In 2018 at Wimbledon, Ramos gave Djokovic a code violation for slamming his racquet into the ground. Djokovic later complained about a double standard from Ramos, who did not penalize Kei Nishikori for something similar.

– In 2017 at the French Open, Ramos called a time violation on Rafael Nadal. Nadal thought the call was selectively enforced and said he was not satisfied with it.

– In 2016 at the French Open, Ramos called Nick Kyrgios for a code violation for yelling at a towel boy. Kyrgios accused Ramos of having a double standard and was described as “mystified” by the penalty.

– In August 2016 at the Olympics, Ramos called Andy Murray for a code violation for saying “stupid umpiring.”

– In July 2017, Ramos called Andy Murray for a time violation for playing too slowly. Murray acknowledged he had been warned before receiving the violation but was still bothered by it.

Other hits:

Ramos is a “gold-badge” umpire, a status conferred on the top officials in tennis.

“I say it with sadness, but he is an umpire who scrutinises me more and who fixates on me more,” Nadal said after the match.

Boy. Ramos really is all over the place when it comes to the genders.

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

And, just for the record, I'm a huge believer that men and women should be treated equally on the Tennis circuit. The sexism on display is absolutely abhorrent. I hereby state, unequivocally, that men and women should play the same amount of sets, there should be a mixed draw, and prize money ought to be distributed accordingly to the victors.

Anyone who disagrees with me is either a sexist or doesn't believe women can compete against men equally, which is disgusting.

- Doc

[_EAllusion]

That the ump has given violations out at other points in his career to men wouldn't prove that he's not one to have a shorter leash with women. It doesn't prove he is either, but that's not not the exonerating evidence you portray it as. In the words of my favorite teacher, use your brain.

[_EAllusion]

My intuition is that we all know sexism is rife in tennis, so the final penalty could’ve been informed by gender bias, but probably wasn’t.

So your intuition tells you that not only is there sexism, but that everyone knows it, and therefore... the final penalty probably wasn't influenced by sexism? I feel like you are missing a step there. How did you go from "sexism is rife" to concluding "no sexism this time"?

You misread me here. My intuition is the full sequence of thoughts including parts you didn't quote. Specifically, my intuition is that the ump probably wasn't biased (though could have been), but is getting thrown under the bus on account of the fact that we generally know tennis has a sexism problem.

Well, not Ajax. But he's currently scratching his chin wondering how a incredibly racist cartoons can be racist.

[_EAllusion]

And, just for the record, I'm a huge believer that men and women should be treated equally on the Tennis circuit. The sexism on display is absolutely abhorrent. I hereby state, unequivocally, that men and women should play the same amount of sets, there should be a mixed draw, and prize money ought to be distributed accordingly to the victors.

Anyone who disagrees with me is either a sexist or doesn't believe women can compete against men equally, which is disgusting.

- Doc

Trying to get upvoted on a redpill reddit board again, I see. Whose reasoning do you think you are skewering here?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

That the ump has given violations out at other points in his career to men wouldn't prove that he's not one to have a shorter leash with women. It doesn't prove he is either, but that's not not the exonerating evidence you portray it as. In the words of my favorite teacher, use your brain.

Well, I'm not the one saying he's a sexist based on his ruling with Serena. Someone would have to make a compelling argument against the evidence he's nitpicky toward both sexes. Use your head, man.

- Doc

[Guest]

Trying to get upvoted on a redpill reddit board again, I see. Whose reasoning do you think you are skewering here?

Huh. Weird that you spend any amount of time on those subreddits, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Who said the following, and how did what I post not address it?

"I'm here fighting for women's rights and for women's equality and for all kinds of stuff."

I can post hundreds of quotes from officials, to fans, to players, which demonstrate that women feel like there's unequality on the tour. Need that?

eta:

Billie Jean King, a tennis legend and equal rights advocate, agreed with Williams.

"When a woman is emotional, she's "hysterical" and she's penalized for it. When a man does the same, he's "outspoken" & and there are no repercussions. Thank you, Serena Williams, for calling out this double standard. More voices are needed to do the same," King tweeted.

You'll note that what I posted above demonstrates that men are, indeed, penalized for outbursts.

- Doc

[_Lemmie]

My intuition is that we all know sexism is rife in tennis, so the final penalty could’ve been informed by gender bias, but probably wasn’t.

So your intuition tells you that not only is there sexism, but that everyone knows it, and therefore... the final penalty probably wasn't influenced by sexism? I feel like you are missing a step there. How did you go from "sexism is rife" to concluding "no sexism this time"?

You misread me here. My intuition is the full sequence of thoughts including parts you didn't quote. Specifically, my intuition is that the ump probably wasn't biased (though could have been), but is getting thrown under the bus on account of the fact that we generally know tennis has a sexism problem.

Well, not Ajax. But he's currently scratching his chin wondering how a incredibly racist cartoons can be racist.

Let's quote you fully then.

For what it is worth, my intuition is that we all know sexism is rife in tennis, so the final penalty could’ve been informed by gender bias, but probably wasn’t. The result is a person likely getting thrown under the bus because doing so serves the cause of tackling what people know exists. But I don’t have confidence in that take, so my real answer is a shrug of the shoulders.

You said the final penalty probably wasn't informed by gender bias, with the result being a person was thrown under the bus to serve the cause of tackling sexism. Got it. I am asking what you the same question as before, but I will ask using words from your latest post; what you are basing this on:

my intuition is that the ump probably wasn't biased (though could have been)

. What is your "intuition that the ump probably wasn't biased (though could have been)" based on?

[_Lemmie]

They are:

https://people.com/sports/female-tennis ... t-us-open/

But your argument is just dumb. Sexism can't exist unless it is overt in every instance with all women?

Not to mention that it isn't just about officiating but about the sport more generally. Maybe we should ask Vandeweghe if she thought it was sexist they cut-off the women's double presentation just so the men could play on time?

Good point. Combined with the Alize Cornet shirt-changing debacle, there were quite a few issues related to sexism that needed to be addressed.

[_Kevin Graham]

Here’s a look at some of Ramos’ history:

– In May 2016 at the French Open, Ramos asked Venus to tell her coach to stop giving hand signals. Venus defended herself and said she wasn’t cheating or looking at her coach.

- In 2017 at the French Open, Novak Djokovic was given a fault on his serve by Carlos Ramos for time violations. He then received a code violation for unsportsmanlike conduct after yelling.

– In 2018 at Wimbledon, Ramos gave Djokovic a code violation for slamming his racquet into the ground. Djokovic later complained about a double standard from Ramos, who did not penalize Kei Nishikori for something similar.

– In 2017 at the French Open, Ramos called a time violation on Rafael Nadal. Nadal thought the call was selectively enforced and said he was not satisfied with it.

– In 2016 at the French Open, Ramos called Nick Kyrgios for a code violation for yelling at a towel boy. Kyrgios accused Ramos of having a double standard and was described as “mystified” by the penalty.

– In August 2016 at the Olympics, Ramos called Andy Murray for a code violation for saying “stupid umpiring.”

– In July 2017, Ramos called Andy Murray for a time violation for playing too slowly. Murray acknowledged he had been warned before receiving the violation but was still bothered by it.

These are time violations and outbursts. No one is saying Serena shouldn't have been penalized for slamming her racquet. She expected that. What set her off was the initial penalty for alleged "cheating." She rightly took offense to that. It suggests she needs to cheat to win which is why she responded the way she did, "I don't need to cheat, I'd rather lose."

Where is an example of this guy penalizing a man for cheating, based on nothing more than his perception that a coach in the stands is somehow "coaching" the player via telepathy or hand signals or whatever. This is really a subjective claim that is on shaky ground. Time violations can easily be measured and justified, as can code violations for screaming and slamming racquets. Saying "you're cheating" is not only insulting, but it is a serious allegation that needs more justification aside from "I saw a guy in the stands sending you signals."