The Tyrannical Minority

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_EAllusion
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:That's an odd read. The Mueller report got a black eye when he was brought in to testify despite the actual evidence being what it is, for a counter example you are overlooking.


That occurred after a long period of time in which the Democrats deliberately killed impeachment momentum related to the report and allowed Bill Barr's lies about it to define press coverage. I'm not sure why you don't see how this would impact public opinion on what was contained in it. Robert Mueller's testimony was handled poorly, but what's in that report is a scandal that is as bad as exists in American history. Democrats did not want to impeach on the basis of it, not because it isn't the right thing to do or because the evidence wasn't clear enough, but because they think doing so had negative political consequences. People opposed to that decision repeatedly made the point that if you pursue impeachment, you get public attention, hearings, and investigatory power that can change public opinion. Low and behold, that's exactly what happened with Ukraine. It's not because the facts are any more damning or there isn't easy to appreciate examples of malfeasance there.

People can understand that the President ordering his people to create a fake paper trail to hide obstruction of justice is bad just as easily as they can understand that illegally hiding conversations under encryption meant to conceal national security secrets is bad. It's not the facts. It's what political leaders are doing with them that is pushing public opinion.

This is a case where Trump handed the evidence to the public out of the gate and from there the inquiry has practically wrote itself. They now have a winning case and are building it.


Donald Trump admitted to obstructing the Russia investigation on TV. It's not about the clarity of evidence. It's about the political will to fight.
_honorentheos
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _honorentheos »

You continue to confuse will to fight with ability to win over people to the argument that the need transcends politics. Again, it's a social intelligence thing. The threshold for overcoming the view it is just Democrats trying to undermine Trump for political reasons is very high. It should be high. People have misread how easily the evidence has cleared it before now but the Democrat leadership hasn't misread how easy it would be to make the case.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_EAllusion
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _EAllusion »

It's quite possible the anger not pursuing impeachment after the Mueller report caused had a decisive impact on going down that path in this case. When the Ukraine scandal started to pick up momentum and Pelosi's crew was giving familiar signals of being opposed to impeachment in the same way and for the same reasons as the Mueller report and any number of other impeachable offenses from the Trump admin, the tone in coverage from progressive commentators was maximum rage. It was yet another example of Democrats' cowardly do-nothingness piling on. The risk of losing their left flank, both within Congress and in the public, has a decent chance of being what pushed the moderate Democrat coalition controlling the agenda over.
_EAllusion
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:You continue to confuse will to fight with ability to win over people to the argument that the need transcends politics. Again, it's a social intelligence thing.


You cannot win over people without fighting to win over people. Conceding out of the gate, as what happened with the Mueller report, is not winning.
_EAllusion
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote: The threshold for overcoming the view it is just Democrats trying to undermine Trump for political reasons is very high.


The facts are the facts. It matters that this is not just Democrats trying to undermine Trump for political reasons. You act on the facts as the are both because it is a ethical obligation and because it gives you the best chance to convince the public to pay attention. Does it get you impeachment in the face of bad-faith partisan solidarity among Republicans? Almost certainly not. Does it create a record for posterity that can influence elections for the better in the immediate future? Possibly. It's more likely than the opposite.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

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honorentheos wrote:отвали товарищ



ファックオフあなたは企業の母親ファッカー
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_honorentheos
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _honorentheos »

Ok bro. That's why we are having this discussion in a thread started in the topic of swinger voters in key states not yet being as onboard as the nation wide polls show the national percentages. It's cute.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_honorentheos
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote: The threshold for overcoming the view it is just Democrats trying to undermine Trump for political reasons is very high.


The facts are the facts. It matters that this is not just Democrats trying to undermine Trump for political reasons. You act on the facts as the are both because it is a ethical obligation and because it gives you the best chance to convince the public to pay attention. Does it get you impeachment in the face of bad-faith partisan solidarity among Republicans? Almost certainly not. Does it create a record for posterity that can influence elections for the better in the immediate future? Possibly. It's more likely than the opposite.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter much what you think on this as the case being pursued has the best chance of persuading voters it wasn't a partisan issue but one of gross wrong doing on the part of Trump. You want to argue Democrats played it poorly and it's just the force of progressive outrage that got us here, argue away. It doesn't change anything of substance. It does make me think the world is best off not having too many EA types in office, though. Or is it that the forces of evolution-like selection have resulted in such being unlikely to be good at the job? Meh. Chicken and egg.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_EAllusion
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:Ok bro. That's why we are having this discussion in a thread started in the topic of swinger voters in key states not yet being as onboard as the nation wide polls show the national percentages. It's cute.


Yeah, that's not a basis to keep impeachment narrow and back off lest you don't convince them. That's a basis to push further. This is a conversation about how Democratic cowardice leads to the former when it should be the latter. And even if it wasn't, doing what's right in this case still takes precedence. You almost certainly are not going to get removal even with majority public backing. Republicans have a recent history of fighting tooth and nail for wildly unpopular positions under the (correct) belief that if they stick to their guns, short political memories will fade and they will have gotten what they wanted. So you can go out on your feet or on your knees. Your pick. There is value in doing the right thing for the future even if you forget that your best chance for a desired outcome happens to coincide with the proper thing to do.
_EAllusion
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Re: The Tyrannical Minority

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:At the end of the day it doesn't matter much what you think on this as the case being pursued has the best chance of persuading voters it wasn't a partisan issue but one of gross wrong doing on the part of Trump. You want to argue Democrats played it poorly and it's just the force of progressive outrage that got us here, argue away. It doesn't change anything of substance. It does make me think the world is best off not having too many EAllusion types in office, though. Or is it that the forces of evolution-like selection have resulted in such being unlikely to be good at the job? Meh. Chicken and egg.
This post is gonna age well if Elizabeth Warren wins the Democrat nomination. Anyway, it's a minority of Democrats who are forcing the majority to behave this way because Democrats can't do anything without their support. That hyper-cautious minority is disproportionately old (traumatized by their defeats in the 70's and 80's it seems) and won't be around forever.

The political party that is willing to fight currently owns virtually the entire government honor. Natural selection doesn't seem to be weeding them out. In fact, they're maintaining vast power even when opposed by popular will. They too agree that would be bad if Democrats decided to expand the impeachment inquiry beyond a narrow focus. You know you've picked a winning strategy when it is the one being recommended by Republican operatives in WSJ editorials.

Crazy me for thinking you try to persuade people of gross wrongdoing on the part of Trump by detailing gross wrongdoing on the part of Trump.
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