Trumpist Terms of Surrender

[honorentheos]

Wanting total surrender is equivalent to declaring total war given the state of politics. It's possible to expect accountability, and a commitment to a better future. But really, we are Nielson Mandela trying to unite South Africa following apartheid more than we are MacArthur on the USS Missouri.

Call it Nelson Mandela-like Truth and Reconciliation if you wish. But before healing can begin, those who have taken an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution and yet have knowingly and willfully lied to the American people for years, or who have incited or physically participated in the crime of sedition, must acknowledge their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and make restitution - just like Rock Wilson outlined- just like any other common criminal, before they can rightfully re-enter society.

Where we diverge is in two places as I see it. While we don't seem to disagree that public acknowledgement of Biden's win and the lack of fraud is important to mending the damage done to democracy, there is no where near the degree of inevitability and capitulation that Rick Wilson describes that compelled it.

That presents a problem if one approaches it as if total surrender is demanded because total surrender can and only follows total war. Total war has not happened so to demand total surrender is to buy into enflaming conflict.

You argue this as if there is infinite leverage on one side and nothing but weakness on the other. That's a very, very bad read. And a dangerous one.

I will argue again we'd do well take our cues from the commander in chief rather than the ragamuffins who helped create the monster that did the damage and whose mirror would be created on the left of their advice and militancy were to define the response to th Democrats now having power in Washington.

I mean, you kinda misrepresented Biden's words from the inauguration which should be concerning to you. Staring into the Trump abyss isn't good for the soul. We are better off seeking better lights to follow.

[DrW]

I mean, you kinda misrepresented Biden's words from the inauguration which should be concerning to you. Staring into the Trump abyss isn't good for the soul. We are better off seeking better lights to follow.

Honor, have you ever served in the military? It's a fair question, the answer to which may help explain the gap between your views and mine as to what upholding and defending the Constitution means. I will claim that there is likely to be a difference between the outlook of someone who has taken a formal and legally binding oath to uphold and defend the constitution, and then backed up that oath with a willingness to put themselves in harms, and someone who has never done so.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has also taken such an oath. Unfortunately, she and her colleagues in both Parties were been put in harm's way by Donald Trump and the insurrectionists on January 6th. Out of a sense of justice, as well as her first hand experience, Nancy Pelosi and many other legislators understand that these criminal acts of January 6 simply cannot go unreconciled. Below is an example of her view of Biden's words.

“Joe Biden said it beautifully: ‘If you’re going to unite, you must remember,’” she added, referencing part of Biden’s inauguration speech. “That’s our responsibility, to uphold the integrity of the Congress of the United States. That’s our responsibility, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. And that is what we will do.”

Accordingly, Speaker Pelosi stated the following earlier today, which to my mind, puts her view of Biden's words close to mine and that of Rick Wilson.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Thursday resoundingly rejected the idea that moving forward with a Senate impeachment trial for former President Donald Trump could undercut President Joe Biden’s message of unity in America.

Real truth and reconciliation are needed before unity can be achieved. The process should start at the top, and should apply to every elected leader who knowingly lied in an effort to overturn the outcome of a free and fair election as mandated by the Constitution, and as has been the tradition in this country for more than two centuries.

[honorentheos]

DrW I suppose there comes a point when the argument is hopelessly stuck on the rocks. One of the Trump supporters I served with pulled the patriotic BS to defend his being outraged over election fraud out of some deep commitment defending democracy being a vet imposes on Facebook. He also tossed in that he had some law enforcement training. It was...amusing. This seems like the mirrored version of his comments. Not a good sign for things to come.

Anyway, I don't think the discussion was moved by this insertion.

[DrW]

DrW I suppose there comes a point when the argument is hopelessly stuck on the rocks. One of the Trump supporters I served with pulled the patriotic BS to defend his being outraged over election fraud out of some deep commitment defending democracy being a vet imposes on Facebook. He also tossed in that he had some law enforcement training. It was...amusing. This seems like the mirrored version of his comments. Not a good sign for things to come.

Anyway, I don't think the discussion was moved by this insertion.

Honor, I didn't take you for one who had served in the military - my mistake. Looks as if we agree on the desired outcome (unity) and perhaps not on the precise process (truth and reconciliation).

[honorentheos]

That, or we disagree about the degree of leverage available to force former/current Trump supporters to get in line. We both appear to agree that the narrative about the 2020 election being stolen is corrosive to democracy and a strong push should continue to see public acknowledgement of the overall fairness of the election by those who pushed the fraud narrative.

But we seem to disagree over whether or not that can be compelled or encouraged. I see the need as reconverting Trump supporters to the side of pro-democracy. To reference another post on the board I made to Ajax, my focus is on a second axis that divided those who are pro-democracy and those who were in favor of authoritarian rule even if they didn't see it in those terms. The left/right axis being a different matter entirely where being for the Democrats doesn't automatically mean a person also defends democratic values and institutions. When I see someone arguing against due process or blanket stereotyping resulting in dehumanizing, that occurs among Trump supporters and opponents which I believe is still dangerous thinking.

In the case of the LP and the arguments like the ones shared in the OP, I see a dismissal of reality and an imposition of an alternative but partisan preferred state of affairs. And that's dangerous as we've seen where that leads.

We are going to have to work together and encourage building progress on common values to succeed. Trump had total control in 2016 and four years later left Washington in disgrace. Biden and Democrats have a slightly more precarious degree of full control. But that's temporary and largely hanging on by a good deal of good will. I see Biden using the political capital available effectively right now. I think his strategy has merit. It will upset many Democrats, mostly progressives, and leave the more extreme party members frothing at what they will see as lost opportunities. But those people tend to be on the same side of the democracy axis as diehard Trump supporters.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I don’t know how an electorate can come together in any meaningful sense when we’re not living in a shared reality. The informational diet that the Republican electorate is consuming right now is so toxic and filled with outright misinformation, that tens of millions are living in a literal, not figurative, paranoiac psychosis. This is driven further into schismatic thinking because the Left is way the “F” out of whack, too. On our Nextdoor and r/saltlakecity we have a constant stream of blameshifting onto white people by Leftists where they’re openly advocating for free housing for all (whatever that means), the erasure of private property rights, literally defunding the police (ACAB), and other hard Left positions. If you advocate for anything other than the Party line you get an immediate hardcore response calling you all sorts of names from bootlicker to racist. When you attempt to talk numbers with them you either get called more names, they go silent, or they advocate for a complete tear down of the system, again, whatever that means.

This weird psychotic state that partisans exist in, both fervently believing in the correctness of their notions, has created an impossible situation. Right now we have folks who are allowing the homeless to camp in their yards, because they believe themselves to be so correct they don’t care about the secondary effects it has on their neighbors, and it’s tearing apart our community. Conversely, we can’t develop a pragmatic solution that doesn’t involve executing the homeless (yes, some have insinuated that) because they’re so anti-tax and ‘personal responsibility’ that the resulting compromise leaves us with crap strewn streets and tents everywhere.

I don’t really know where everything is headed, but unity ain’t it.

- Doc

[DrW]

I don’t really know where everything is headed, but unity ain’t it.

To move forward, complete unity isn't needed. There will always be fringes - left and right. What we need is a working majority that can come to agreement on the most critical issues, most of which have been exacerbated, and therefore highlighted, by the Trump/Republican disaster of the last 4 years.

Consider the Pew Trust graphic below showing the percentages of Democrat, Independent and Republican voters through 2018. Assuming a slight shift to the left for right leaning Independents after the 2020 election, it seems reasonable to assume that, once Trump is convicted and things settle down, there will be a working majority of approximately 65% to 68% of voters that could agree on important issues. This working majority would consist of most Democrats, true and left leaning Independents, and most Independents who were right leaning in 2018. Who knows, perhaps even a small proportion of the bright red Republicans would see the need for unity and join the majority on certain issues.

Because of the gerrymandering, this working majority may not be well reflected in Congress, but it should be enough to move forward on the important issues. Many, myself included, believe that Biden and key Democrats in Congress can reach across the isle and get things done. Issues such as the corona virus vaccinations, climate change, health care, extended unemployment benefits, infrastructure investment, etc., would be no-brainer non-partisan issues, were it not for Tea Party / Trump type obstructionism.

Trump's conviction and inability to tweet, as well as such events as the take down of Parler, disillusionment of QAnon adherents, and the natural post election loss of viewership at Fox News, especially its opinion shows, should certainly help the re-normalization.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Dr. W,

Thanks for that. It’s feels like a calmer head is walking me back from the ledge. I think my post earlier was reflective of a big Nextdoor blow up where typical Right/Left dynamics were at play. Sometimes I feel like the Right and Left divide is as wide as the Mopologist and Critic divide.

Also. The last four years have left me a bit shaken, not just with having to tolerate an unabashedly corrupt populist and his cronies, but to witness the lifting of the veil that blinded me to just how damned dumb, illiterate, fascist, and cartoonishly ignorant half the country revealed itself to be.

Hopefully cooler heads can hold the middle.

- Doc