On audits, elections and public trust

[Mayan Elephant]

We definitely need to tone down the rhetoric.

I totally agree. It is unacceptable to accuse an entire subset of the population of something as heinous as racism and disenfranchisement. It is unbecoming. And it is just downright unkind to not listen to another's point of view, unless we are certain that they are completely jackassed and wrong, in which case we are actually toning down their rhetoric by insulting them so that is praiseworthy.

Lot's of agreement here. That is good.

[Chap]

As a bystander, who wants to understand what kind of discussion is going on here, can I just check with MA:

Do you have any serious reason to doubt that Biden did indeed win both the popular vote and the electoral college on the basis of a safe margin of legitimate votes?

And I ask that question as a matter of serious practical reason, not on the basis of some remote logical possibility of it being otherwise.

[Moksha]

Blue ANON, first time hearing that, thanks for the enlightenment.

While I sometimes make things up, even that seems a bit weird to me.

[Mayan Elephant]

As a bystander, who wants to understand what kind of discussion is going on here, can I just check with MA:

Do you have any serious reason to doubt that Biden did indeed win both the popular vote and the electoral college on the basis of a safe margin of legitimate votes?

And I ask that question as a matter of serious practical reason, not on the basis of some remote logical possibility of it being otherwise.

Biden is president. He won the popular vote and 306 of the EC votes. I do not assign any value of safety to either outcome. There is no remote possibility that there was another outcome. The popular vote is not relevant, so there is nothing safe about winning it. There is also nothing unsafe about losing it. The EC votes are not a threat, and having more or less does not factor into anyone's safety. Honestly, I have no clue how a margin of votes can be the basis of safety. What the hell am I missing here? Is Biden or anyone else less safe if the EC vote had been 270/268?

I think the President wins with a margin >0. In the event of a tie, I think that the President wins with a margin >0 in the process as described in the constitution and its amendments.

The discussion was about ideology and fault lines. Is it your point to determine, by some arbitrary standard, where someone stands in relation to a fault line? If someone does not find the "margin of legitimate votes" credible, is that a threat to your safety or to Biden's?

Based on this discussion, I think anything other than bowing one's head and saying "yes" is a HUGE ********* THREAT to a lot of people's feelings but not a threat to their safety at all.

[Chap]

As a bystander, who wants to understand what kind of discussion is going on here, can I just check with MA:

Do you have any serious reason to doubt that Biden did indeed win both the popular vote and the electoral college on the basis of a safe margin of legitimate votes?

And I ask that question as a matter of serious practical reason, not on the basis of some remote logical possibility of it being otherwise.

Biden is president. He won the popular vote and 306 of the electoral college votes. I do not assign any value of safety to either outcome. There is no remote possibility that there was another outcome. The popular vote is not relevant, so there is nothing safe about winning it. There is also nothing unsafe about losing it. The electoral college votes are not a threat, and having more or less does not factor into anyone's safety. Honestly, I have no clue how a margin of votes can be the basis of safety. What the hell am I missing here? Is Biden or anyone else less safe if the electoral college vote had been 270/268?

I think the the President wins with a margin >0. In the event of a tie, I think that the the President wins with a margin >0 in the process as described in the constitution and its amendments.

The discussion was about ideology and fault lines. Is it your point to determine, by some arbitrary standard, where someone stands in relation to a fault line? If someone does not find the "margin of legitimate votes" credible, is that a threat to your safety or to Biden's?

Based on this discussion, I think anything other than bowing one's head and saying "yes" is a HUGE ********* THREAT to a lot of people's feelings but not a threat to their safety at all.

As I said, my question was asked to ascertain what kind of discussion is going on here.

Observation of past discussions in relation to the recent Presidential election suggests that a discussion that includes advocates of the claim that Trump did in fact win both the popular vote and the electoral college, but that victory was stolen from him by very large scale fraudulent activity organised by Democrats or Republican traitors will have a different character from one that does not.

I am a long-term connoisseur of discussions on this board, and it is good to know what will be on the menu today. Hence my question.

[Mayan Elephant]

As I said, my question was asked to ascertain what kind of discussion is going on here.

Observation of past discussions in relation to the recent Presidential election suggests that a discussion that includes advocates of the claim that Trump did in fact win both the popular vote and the electoral college, but that victory was stolen from him by very large scale fraudulent activity organised by Democrats or Republican traitors will have a different character from one that does not.

I am a long-term connoisseur of discussions on this board, and it is good to know what will be on the menu today. Hence my question.

Got it.

And, still just a wee lad who is back in the nursery, I have not read or seen those threads or discussions.

Chap, in fairness, I will say more then.

I grew up in a VERY D household. My grandmother worked for Hubert Humphrey and then for JFK and Senator Moss. I was a registered R for part of my adult life and a registered D for part of my adult life. I have voted in every election - up to now. I stood next to Caroline Peterson at city hall during the Prop 8 mess. I did not vote for Trump in 2016.

I will NEVER vote in an election that allows mass mail in ballots. I will NEVER vote in an election that does not require voter ID and mandatory audits of voter registration. I have unregistered in my state because of the mail in ballot mess and drop box mess and the months-long counting mess. This is not to say that I would vote one way or another in any election were the conditions satisfactory to me. I do not approve of the condescension and lack of credibility in the current process. I have zero faith in a court system that can opt out with standing/laches, or opt out because something is political or icky.

I have my preferences on candidates. But, I will not participate in a process that is not credible. I will not be used as the veneer and shine on a process that is not transparent, or, where transparency is considered threatening. I feel very good about this. I do not want to question whether my vote was counted or diluted. I would prefer that we get rid of elections entirely rather than lob weapons and insults at each other as pawns for the brokers and masters of the universe. To me, the current election process is no more credible than the sustaining "vote" for the President/Prophet of the LDS church, and I do not do that either. Though, notice here, I am not disputing the fact that Mr. Nelson has won the vote handily for a while now.

Elections were meant to be the people's collective choice. That experiment is over for now. Some of my candidate choices won, some lost. I want no part of endorsing the calamity. I prefer to walk across the fault lines rather than shoot rockets over it. I will accept whatever the choices are if others continue to play this election ideology game. I see the anxiety building on both sides. I think it will lead to a HUGE confrontation soon.

[Icarus]

I have voted in every election - up to now....

I will NEVER vote in an election that allows mass mail in ballots. I will NEVER vote in an election that does not require voter ID and mandatory audits of voter registration.

Only one of these statements can be true since literally every election "up to now" since the 19th century has allowed mail in ballots and voter ID has never been required in all states. You should base your faux outrage on something based in reality.

[Mayan Elephant]

I have voted in every election - up to now....

I will NEVER vote in an election that allows mass mail in ballots. I will NEVER vote in an election that does not require voter ID and mandatory audits of voter registration.

Only one of these statements can be true.

you are ridiculous. of course they can both be true. In the past, I voted in good-faith despite the rancidness of mail in voting and unreliable registrations. I will not make that mistake again. I WILL NEVER vote in any election that is a facade and veneer for democracy. I would prefer a monarchy, oligarchy or dictatorship without my consent for the lack of transparency and discipline in a de-facto monarchy, oligarchy or dictatorship.

For me, this is a grounded response to the terms and conditions of the current process. I am not fighting it. I am not raging. I am just saying no to my participation in a process that does not meet my standards for participation.

While many may say that this is spoiled grapes over an outcome, that is absolutely not true. I accept that our courts use standing/laches in sequence. I accept that mail in voting is very popular. I accept that voter registration and identification is considered racist. And I choose to opt out. It is no different than opting out of the sacrament or temple promises I made at another point in my life. I did that, now I do not do that. I voted in elections with shenanigans, now I will never vote in such an election.

[Icarus]

Never means never. And no, your "standards of participation" are ridiculous. You must think Democracy isn't really Democracy if any percentage of the vote, no matter how infinitesimal, is perceived to be fraudulent. You say you're not calling the election a fraud or the results bogus but then you post drivel like this that throws shade on our entire election process as a farce. Apply this logic to everything else in life and you might as well go blow your brains out. Have you ever been to the doctor in the USA? Why use American healthcare at all? I mean aren't you aware that medical fraud exists, and at a far higher rate than voter fraud? You should just opt out, right?

"While many may say that this is spoiled grapes over an outcome, that is absolutely not true."

Yeah. Sure. Then why the sudden change of heart only after Trump's loss? Clearly you were aware of voter fraud in previous elections and the long history of accepting mail in ballots.

by the way, how many of those "audited" ballots in Arizona have been proven to be fraudulent?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

ME,

Are you sure you’re not projecting Republican voter malfeasance onto Democrats? In 2018, a voting fraud scandal in Bladen County, NC caught our national attention span for a day or two when Republican Mark Harris’ win (this was for a seat in Congress, by the way) was voided because an operative for his campaign allegedly tampered with absentee ballots. Harris claimed to be ignorant, but his own son testified he knew what was up.

- Doc