Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

[_ajax18]

The unskilled immigrant who took Markk's job from the '70s still requires being paid who in turn circulates their pay back into the economy creating multiplier benefits as well

.

One difference I see is that workers in the 70s spent most of their money here in the USA, whereas Latin American immigrants send a large portion of their income back to their native countries. Wouldn't this change the supply side economics a bit?

I do think that tax rates need to be part of the solution to move horded wealth back into the real economy so that the benefits of increased efficiency get distributed more broadly.

It seems like increased tax rates under Obama caused the 1% to sit on their wealth and horde it rather than invest in new businesses. Obamacare certainly caused some of this. A lot of money was pushed overseas to tax haven countries.

[_ajax18]

Ajax is probably more concerned about ethnicity.

Ethnicity is a concern of mine but it's far from the biggest concern. My biggest concern is one of national sovereignty. Nobody including myself, complains about legal immigration. We're talking about people invading the country, demanding citizenship, and the voter pretty much not having a say otherwise.

[_honorentheos]

The unskilled immigrant who took Markk's job from the '70s still requires being paid who in turn circulates their pay back into the economy creating multiplier benefits as well

.

One difference I see is that workers in the 70s spent most of their money here in the USA, whereas Latin American immigrants send a large portion of their income back to their native countries. Wouldn't this change the supply side economics a bit?

Remittances are certainly higher than they were in the '70s though the countries that receive them are all over the world including such economic powerhouses as Germany and Japan. But Mexico is at the top of the list. It wouldn't be fair to say that the loss of the multiplier effect of those dollars being spent in the US is unimportant though there are also economic positives. But this isn't on a scale that had massive effects on the US economy. To put it into perspective, in 2016 there was an estimated $138.1 Billion dollars sent in remittances from the US to other countries of which about $13M went to Mexico. That same year the US auto industry sold about 17.5 million automobiles at an average price of $35,000 per unit sold for a total of over $615 Billion. We spend somewhere around a billon dollars on Cyber Monday as a nation. So, there's a certain need to reflect on the order of magnitude involved.

I do think that tax rates need to be part of the solution to move horded wealth back into the real economy so that the benefits of increased efficiency get distributed more broadly.

It seems like increased tax rates under Obama caused the 1% to sit on their wealth and horde it rather than invest in new businesses. Obamacare certainly caused some of this. A lot of money was pushed overseas to tax haven countries.

That's an odd argument to make given that the effect on wealth migration has been going on over multiple decades from the Reagan years to today.

[_subgenius]

so, the way I read it here, the exploitation of an unskilled labor force composed of illegal immigrants is good for the economy and therefore justifies not deporting them...and also justifies keeping them exploited.
All that makes for a great 2018 DNC platform.

[_honorentheos]

so, the way I read it here, the exploitation of an unskilled labor force composed of illegal immigrants is good for the economy and therefore justifies not deporting them...and also justifies keeping them exploited.
All that makes for a great 2018 DNC platform.

It's basically been the RNC's platform, substituting in unskilled American workers for illegals suckered into voting against their economic interests because of social issues. So there's that.

That said, exploitation is a relative concept, Subby. Read Markk's comments from today. Between the lines of nationalism and concern about cultural overrun is another story to be read.

[_EAllusion]

so, the way I read it here, the exploitation of an unskilled labor force composed of illegal immigrants is good for the economy and therefore justifies not deporting them...and also justifies keeping them exploited.

You think allowing people to give a person a job at a rate of pay they've agreed to that you think deserves more is an act of perpetual exploitation subgenius? When did you get religion on communism?

How do you propose fixing the explotation of the proletariat by employers not paying them what they deserve?

[_subgenius]

so, the way I read it here, the exploitation of an unskilled labor force composed of illegal immigrants is good for the economy and therefore justifies not deporting them...and also justifies keeping them exploited.

You think allowing people to give a person a job at a rate of pay they've agreed to that you think deserves more is an act of perpetual exploitation subgenius? When did you get religion on communism?

How do you propose fixing the explotation of the proletariat by employers not paying them what they deserve?

My post was not a declaration of my beliefs but rather an observation of other's.
Regardless, the exception in your summary above is that notion of "agreed upon" which seems to be closely related to coercion, whereas the agreement is not based upon a free market but is based upon an exploited market. One cannot claim free market capitalism being manifest simply because a tribal chieftan "agreed upon" a price for a ship full of slaves.

[_honorentheos]

Regardless, the exception in your summary above is that notion of "agreed upon" which seems to be closely related to coercion, whereas the agreement is not based upon a free market but is based upon an exploited market. One cannot claim free market capitalism being manifest simply because a tribal chieftan "agreed upon" a price for a ship full of slaves.

I have to say this is one of the widest misses I've seen in describing the way labor gets priced in a system. Were the analogy of immigrant labor to slavery even remotely sensible, one would also have to concede the solution to undocumented workers being in the US would be to tell them they didn't need to work here anymore and we'd buy them the bus ticket back to their native country.

I have to assume that what Subby describes as an exploited market is his way of referring to job scarcity compared to the supply of potential workers in the unskilled labor market. His comments are almost communist as EA pointed out above. If, OTOH, the concern is properly understood as a function of the market rather than running counter to how market forces work, one may find a light bulb going off for them as to why there are concerns about completely unregulated markets and their effects on the middle and lower classes.

[_Markk]

Markk, here's what I said upthread that hopefully helps you out -

As I noted above to Cam, I personally think government intervention is necessary for capital to move in the economy at levels that create the benefits we've been talking about. It's more intuitive than something I've seen demonstrated in models. So, I guess it's a bias of mine. But that's my sense of why overall we're seeing wealth accrue disproportionately to the most wealthy few even as the effect of both automation and cheaper immigrant labor have positive effects on real wages in the US.

You're complaining about people not addressing things that have been discussed repeatedly and in some depth (or as deep as most things on a message board get discussed.)

Well, there has and will always be rich and poor. When governments try to make it more balanced...it seems to make more poor, and the rich fewer... yet those that are, very rich, and usually they are those in power, or in cahoots with those in power. Government need s to step in, but there has to be balance...and government it's self cannot be the "golden ticket" of their interventions. Government workers are reaping the benefits of shier interventions at an alarming pace...if you want to do a study look at the statistics of government workers vs private sector, and the impact on our budgets. Use Ca. as a model.

You still have not addressed the different conclusions in the links, unless I missed it. Which one of the studies, by these never to be mistaken economists, that are hand picked...is actually reality? While you have bias', so do I, and one of them is surfing the net for a study that supports one opinion, then not really reading it, and then pasting it as fact as if one is an expert, which is EA's MO.


He has no idea what is really happening to our economy, especially here is CA, and he has absolutely no idea how immigration and homelessness has grown beyond practical solutions...again here in the border states and So Ca. Yet he acts as if an internet article can give him a better knowledge of these issue than those that work and live here.

[_Markk]

You picked those links to make a point that you can find sources to back up what ever you want, but EAllusion suggests they didn't back up your position. You would need to show how the back up your position in order to have a real point. I do agree that one could find articles written to support any position out there, but most are just assertion without substance. The more accurate positions to reality will have that substance. They will provide that substance so anyone can check it out for themselves. I also wouldn't assume people doing the research are not out in the field seeing things with there own eyes. I suspect many will be out there more then you or I.

LOL...they contradict much of what is being claimed...that immigrants make wages higher for everyone except non high school graduates..and that wages in genarl are lower since the 1950's...($20.00 hr jobs are gone). If wages are lower, how can they be higher..if wages are decreasing, how can they be increasing.

I gave a real example of how immigration has hurt the CA economy and the natives. And here is another...if you go to most any project in the LA area, nd most other areas, including San Diego... the work force of Hispanic workers is 80 percent or more. The company I work for, which has anywhere from 150 to 200 workers in the field, depending on current contracts, is somewhere around 98% percent...I know of 2 white guys in the field. Many are here illegally, and many here with green cards, and maybe 20-30% born here (guess). This is typical here.

We don't hire white guys or other Hispanic's that are actually naturalized, and live like you and I...and not because we don't want to, but becasue they want too much money, and if we did, we would not be competitive and win contracts. This cycle of an influx of immigrants willing to work for low wages, keeps wages down, and keeps home owners and people wanting to grow away from an ever growing variety of jobs.

This is the same in manufacturing jobs, service, delivery, warehouse, and other types of jobs...

This is a reality that is not addressed in any study pasted here that I have looked at.