Markk wrote: What Karl Marx and the others did and thought, has nothing to do with what is happening in America in regards to illegal immigration.
You are making a leftist argument for labor protectionism in opposition to capitalism. You might miss this because you imagine yourself as allied with people who talk positively about capitalism, but your pinko arguments tell a different story.
The argument you are making doesn't even require immigration from outside of the US for its reasoning to turn. Southern California is a rich area of the country that has higher wages than many other areas. What if, as has actually happened, people from poorer areas of the country migrate to So-Cal and compete for local jobs? All your economic arguments for why this would be a bad thing continue to apply just the same.
No I am saying that wages are not rising because of illegal immigration for those with a high school education or more, and you are changing the argument from wages to more or less buying power. I will try one more time. Why are you wages higher do to illegal immigration? Go back and read your assertion that started this.
here it is...
Immigrants actually raise wages for all but those who lack a high school degree, and the effect even there is relatively modest. I suppose this might be counterintuitive until you realize that more participants in a consumer economy produces economic growth, which leads to wage increases.
If you want to depress wages, cut off immigration.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
Markk wrote: No I am saying that wages are not rising because of illegal immigration for those with a high school education or more, and you are changing the argument from wages to more or less buying power. I will try one more time. Why are you wages higher do to illegal immigration? Go back and read your assertion that started this.
Aside from the fact that you keep changing the word "immigration" to "illegal immigration," I have been repeatedly explaining the underlying theory to why this happens and pointing to the fact that this is what labor economists are saying is happening according to the empirical research.
You refer to real wages when pointing to wage stagnation because obviously people make a lot more than they did in 1979 if you don't adjust for inflation. The positive benefits of immigration on wages are multi-fold. They make things cheaper by driving down prices in certain sectors of the economy and make productivity better by causing native workers to do things that have greater marginal productivity. It's generally a positive phenomenon.
Here's a link to the business school Donald Trump went to that explains it:
Economists generally agree that the effects of immigration on the U.S. economy are broadly positive. Immigrants, whether high- or low-skilled, legal or illegal, are unlikely to replace native-born workers or reduce their wages over the long-term, though they may cause some short-term dislocations in labor markets. Indeed, the experience of the last few decades suggests that immigration may actually have significant long-term benefits for the native-born, pushing them into higher-paying occupations and raising the overall pace of innovation and productivity growth.
See the link for a discussion of how and why this is happens, though it would be a repeat of what was said here.
I think what's happening in Markk's neck of the woods, and by extension throughout the US to varying degrees is complicated. It's not as simple as 'IMMIGRATION', or 'DRUGS', or whatever the [deleted] nonsense EA is spewing, because, let's face, nothing he's said has been consistent other than just to be a contrarian to Markk's position. Big [deleted] surprise there.
Let's go back to the crux of the issue. In the 1950's we won WWII and were the only industrialized nation left standing. Literally 98 out 100 men found work (Source: Bureau of Labor).
1950's - Dominant superpower - Industrial powerhouse - 98% employment - Massive growth - Supplied virtually everything to the world
What Markk needs to acknowledge is that paradigm began to shift in the 1960's when Europe & Japan started to recover.
1960's - Challengers arise - wealth distribution continues unabated - women make some forays into academia and the labor market
1970's - Europe, Canada, Japan are economic powerhouses - Women entering workforce in record levels - Our dominance is starting to be challenged, but we're still truckin' along
1980's - China is starting to wake up, Korea is getting its crap together, Indonesia, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Israel come into play - Our dominance is suddenly challenged HARD - Massive immigration from Mexico into labor market - Women flooding labor market - DUAL INCOME FAMILIES becoming a thing just to keep up with the loss of our dominance on the global stage
1990's - Global marketplace divvied up - US assumes de facto military-industrial complex - Immigration continues unabated - women matching male participation in university & work - Tech sector making up for loss of industrial production lost to now Asia
2000 to 2018 - Economic stratification happening within US - Masses turn to opiods and various forms of intoxicants - Obesity at epidemic rates - Africa, Latin America, India & Russia now waking up - China asserting dominance - The world is now divvying up the tech sector like it did the industrial sector - Women surpassing male participation in university
Obviously all that's an oversimplification of what's happening, but it's the gist more or less. Markk is just living in the reality of the transition from America being a dominant player on the global scene to being a participant that is, in fact, getting lapped right now.
The answer isn't really just to flood our streets with more immigrants because 'MORE COMPETITION MORE GOOD'. We need to take a hard look at all of it, and look at our current situation pragmatically, and figure out where we want to be and move toward that end. Flooding our streets with more desperate people looking to get something they're not getting in Mexico or Central America isn't smart. On the same token we need to reward immigrant applicants who can provide an immediate impact to our economy, and if that means allowing laborers in, who, say, after five years have a good track record, have been employed, paid taxes, and want to remain in country than so be it. Good for them. We need to assess our needs, and bring in people who are producers. But we also need to keep people who drain our system, whatever it is they drain, out.
This [deleted] that Trump is doing where he takes a business owner from [deleted] Lebanon and deports him is suicidal. Keep Jahamal. He's good. Bring in more Jahamals. Or Umbertos. Or Ivans. If we need to lock our border down to stem the tide, figure out how to document and track immigrants, and then figure out how to get people to work great. Let's do it.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
I know what you mean, Doc. I had to use a canoe to get to the mailbox this afternoon. Damn immigrants were stacked in the streets at least 20 feet deep.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Res Ipsa wrote:I know what you mean, Doc. I had to use a canoe to get to the mailbox this afternoon. Dam immigrants were stacked in the streets at least 20 feet deep.
FTFY.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
It was a coy joke. You'd have to compare the two quotes, and then understand it in context of our exchange. Let me know when your autism subsides and I'll point it out if you still don't get it.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Res Ipsa wrote:I know what you mean, Doc. I had to use a canoe to get to the mailbox this afternoon. Dam immigrants were stacked in the streets at least 20 feet deep.
Fixed it for you.
- Doc
Well played, Mr. Cam. Well played.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951