MDB Bible Study

[_Ceeboo]

Morning, honor

You really don't know any examples of this?

That are inexplicable? Nope.

How would you explain this sudden and radical transformation in a human being?

But the claim is there are millions and this is primary evidence.

Yeah - I should have said billions - After all, it has been almost 2,000 years since the explosion of countless 1st century jews who were suddenly and radically transformed.

I would expect there could be one that could be put forward.

As I stated before, I'm not sure how I could do that on a message board unless I use myself and, as I already mentioned in my last post to you, I am very hesitant/cautious to do that here.

Because I was reading about this last night - I am curious what your take is on something (If you would rather not answer, for whatever reason, no worries)

This is an excerpt from a letter that C. S. Lewis wrote when he was only 18 years old:
“You ask me my religious views: you know, I think I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies, to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention…

Thus religion, that is to say mythology, grew up. Often, too, great men were regarded as gods after their death — such as Hercules or Odin: thus after the death of a Hebrew philosopher Yeshua (whose name we have corrupted into Jesus), he became regarded as a god, a cult sprang up, which was afterwards connected with the ancient Hebrew Yahweh-worship, and so Christianity came into being — one mythology among many.” [From The Letters of C.S. Lewis by W.H. Lewis]

Then, at the age of 32 while teaching at Oxford/Cambridge, he stepped on a bus as an atheist - as he has been his entire life - By the time the he got off that bus he believed in God - Then one of his many books rolled out "Surprised by Joy", How Lewis became a Christian.

What's your take on this?

From my view, in addition to other things, this seems to lend some weight to a fairly common proposal/theory that is discussed - that much of this really isn't about intellect. It seems to be rooted in something else.

Anyway, I understand that I drifted off topic with you here (I acknowledge that I am not being fair to you regarding the conversation we were having) so if you would rather not share your thoughts, I understand.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Buddhism

In olden days Emperor Ming saw in a dream a god whose body had the brilliance of the sun and who flew before his palace; and he rejoiced exceedingly at this. The next day he asked his officials: "What god is this?" the scholar Fu Yi said: "Your subject has heard it said that in India there is somebody who has attained the Dao and who is called Buddha; he flies in the air, his body had the brilliance of the sun; this must be that god."

Billions upon billions of Asians have been radically transformed by the Buddha.

- Doc

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Cam

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Buddhism

In olden days Emperor Ming saw in a dream a god whose body had the brilliance of the sun and who flew before his palace; and he rejoiced exceedingly at this. The next day he asked his officials: "What god is this?" the scholar Fu Yi said: "Your subject has heard it said that in India there is somebody who has attained the Dao and who is called Buddha; he flies in the air, his body had the brilliance of the sun; this must be that god."

Billions upon billions of Asians have been radically transformed by the Buddha.

- Doc

I would not say that they were suddenly and radically transformed - I would say, like other religions, they follow teachings of a human (I will pass on the billions upon billions suggestion)


How about Mormonism? Would you posit that billions of human beings have been suddenly and radically transformed by Joseph Smith, Young, Monson?

Suppose, along our life's journey, we came upon a split in the road. We can go left of we can go right. You have two people you can ask for directions - Buddha (A dead man) and Jesus (The resurrected and living creator of the universe) - who would you ask for direction?

You see, Biblical Christianity makes a very unique and fantastic claim - That is, Jesus was raised from the dead and is the Living God of the universe. Just like the many 1st century humans who encountered the resurrected Jesus - causing this sudden and radical transformation - so has billions since then.

Christianity is cemented in the miraculous resurrection of Jesus. If it didn't happen, The Bible and Christianity is of no use - If Jesus did raise from the dead, then................

Since I mentioned in my last post that I have been recently reading about C. S. Lewis - I will post a couple of his quotes that I believe have deep meaning.

“Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.”
― C.S. Lewis

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

[_Ceeboo]

Turning back to Bible study: John 3:1-13

The New Birth
1There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

In my mind - This section of scripture is so telling.
Nicodemus (A pharisee - A high religious leader - A man that has probably been intimately studying the Tanakh for several years/decades - A man that has been teaching others from a position of high authority - And yet, he has no idea what Jesus is talking about)

He comes to visit Jesus by night (I think there is deep meaning in this all by itself)
He has no clue about spiritual things - The things Jesus is telling him are going right over his head (How is that possible considering who he is and the position he holds?)

Any thoughts on your end?

[_honorentheos]

Then, at the age of 32 while teaching at Oxford/Cambridge, he stepped on a bus as an atheist - as he has been his entire life - By the time the he got off that bus he believed in God - Then one of his many books rolled out "Surprised by Joy", How Lewis became a Christian.

What's your take on this?

I was fond of Lewis as a Mormon, both from loving the Narnia series as a kid and discovering his Christian writings after serving a mission. Mere Christianity was practically scripture to me, falling in the category of truth a member of the faith could find from any source and absorbing.

I say that so that my response doesn't sound flippant, but I don't believe the above accurately describes Lewis's conversion. He was raised religious, fell away while a teen and had his time in WWI reinforce his view that no God could possibly have ownership of the mess that is the world. But he remained engaged and engaging the topic including long exchanges with J.R.R. Tolkian who sought to convert him to Catholicism. He described the process in one of the many books he wrote as a conversion he reluctantly engaged in or something to the effect, abut it was an intellectual conversion brought about over quite a number of years. I don't view it as inexplicable. He was convinced by deeply committed people he cared about that Christianity was correct and came to share their view over time.

if you would rather not share your thoughts, I understand.

Why have a message board or engage a subject if one doesn't want to share ones thoughts? And if one has thoughts one plays like a game of Bridge, isn't that avoiding using a discussion as an opportunity to get at the truth of a thing? Instead, it's simply assuming one knows what is what and is just here to school others? Which is not a particularly charitable view to have.

[_Lemmie]

ceeboo:

I would not say that they were suddenly and radically transformed - I would say, like other religions, they follow teachings of a human (I will pass on the billions upon billions suggestion)


How about Mormonism? Would you posit that billions of human beings have been suddenly and radically transformed by Joseph Smith, Young, Monson?

Suppose, along our life's journey, we came upon a split in the road. We can go left of we can go right. You have two people you can ask for directions - Buddha (A dead man) and Jesus (The resurrected and living creator of the universe) - who would you ask for direction?

You see, Biblical Christianity makes a very unique and fantastic claim - That is, Jesus was raised from the dead and is the Living God of the universe. Just like the many 1st century humans who encountered the resurrected Jesus - causing this sudden and radical transformation - so has billions since then

Rather than the confirmation bias of concluding what one grew up with and what one is comfortable with is the one and only way, and what everyone else believes is simply not, i think what huckelberry has proposed is far more unifying.

Re the Bible study and nicodemus example, is the argument that the then contemporary version of the phrase “born of the Spirit” was unknown to those studying the Tanakh?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I think Ceeboo fundamentally doesn't want to comprehend the divinity of the the Buddha. The same reasoning could be extended to Islam, where Allah revealed to a illiterate warlord merchant His word, perfectly by the way, and where Islam doesn't recognize Jesus' godhood. The same could be extended to various Hindu deities. In fact, I'd argue that these 'radical transformations' extend across all sorts of religions to their believers.

Be that as it may, all you have to do, really, is assert that x-group experiences radical transformation, and that unless you subject yourself to an openness to receive that transformation then the experience itself is unknowable.

I have no doubt had Ceeboo been born and raised under some other paradigm he'd be just as passionate and believing in the concepts and personal experiences that validate his worldview.

- Doc

[_Ceeboo]

I was fond of Lewis as a Mormon, both from loving the Narnia series as a kid and discovering his Christian writings after serving a mission. Mere Christianity was practically scripture to me, falling in the category of truth a member of the faith could find from any source and absorbing.

I say that so that my response doesn't sound flippant, but I don't believe the above accurately describes Lewis's conversion. He was raised religious, fell away while a teen and had his time in WWI reinforce his view that no God could possibly have ownership of the mess that is the world. But he remained engaged and engaging the topic including long exchanges with J.R.R. Tolkian who sought to convert him to Catholicism.

The story about entering the bus as an atheist and getting off said bus as a believer in God is how he tells the story in his book "Surprised by Joy." After this, Tolkien (an intellectual Christian friend) challenged him to think critically about Jesus and the claims of Jesus - As Lewis took this challenge (wrestling with the idea of Jesus being God in the flesh) He accepted Jesus as Hid Lord and Savior a few hours later. A few days after that, he wrote this to Tolkien “I have passed on from believing in God to definitely believing in Christ — in Christianity.”

Why have a message board or engage a subject if one doesn't want to share ones thoughts? And if one has thoughts one plays like a game of Bridge, isn't that avoiding using a discussion as an opportunity to get at the truth of a thing? Instead, it's simply assuming one knows what is what and is just here to school others? Which is not a particularly charitable view to have.

Yes, I understand and appreciate this. I only extended the offer to pass because I changed the scope of the conversation quite a bit on you. Thanks for giving me your perspective!

[_honorentheos]

Let's suppose for a moment there is a man who spent the bulk of his early adult years living like an American hedonistic. His social life was defined by alcohol consumption and wild flings with women who were merely objects used to gratify his carnal urges. On the outside he was living life fully by doing well in his work and being the life of the party everywhere he went. Women fell into his bed, and in and out of his life, and he was financially well off. He had everything life seemed to be able to offer.

But inside he was miserable. And this took its toll on him, leading to people not finding him as fun to be around, affecting his job, and spinning him even deeper into the pit of unhappiness.

At a moment he would come to view as his rock bottom, he found himself in a hotel room questioning if anything mattered at all when he decided to open the Bible in the room and read it. The verse he read hit him as having a profound answer that compelled him to read and then pray. And in this moment he found a feeling of hope and joy that showed he could find joy and purpose in life. He followed this path to join in communion with others, and in the process took on new habits and a way of life that included others in different ways than his former life involved. And in so doing, he found more and more purpose, better relationships including marriage and fatherhood, and his former empty life was nothing more than a nightmare he had awoken from years past.

To this person, the idea there might not be a god or that the Bible is a collection of mythic tales would seem silly. His life became so more because of God and the teachings of the Bible. And they are exactly what the Christian community had promised would come from accepting Jesus.

Would this hypothetical person rightly call their conversion inexplicable?

[Guest]

I was fond of Lewis as a Mormon, both from loving the Narnia series as a kid and discovering his Christian writings after serving a mission. Mere Christianity was practically scripture to me, falling in the category of truth a member of the faith could find from any source and absorbing.

I say that so that my response doesn't sound flippant, but I don't believe the above accurately describes Lewis's conversion. He was raised religious, fell away while a teen and had his time in WWI reinforce his view that no God could possibly have ownership of the mess that is the world. But he remained engaged and engaging the topic including long exchanges with J.R.R. Tolkian who sought to convert him to Catholicism.

The story about entering the bus as an atheist and getting off said bus as a believer in God is how he tells the story in his book "Surprised by Joy." After this, Tolkien (an intellectual Christian friend) challenged him to think critically about Jesus and the claims of Jesus - As Lewis took this challenge (wrestling with the idea of Jesus being God in the flesh) He accepted Jesus as Hid Lord and Savior a few hours later. A few days after that, he wrote this to Tolkien “I have passed on from believing in God to definitely believing in Christ — in Christianity.”

Here is a quote from Surprised by Joy:

whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked home on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The words “compelle intrare,” compel them to come in, have been so abused be wicked men that we shudder at them; but, properly understood, they plumb the depth of the Divine mercy. The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation.

The moment you describe came two years later when he was 31-

I know very well when, but hardly how, the final step was taken. I was driven to Whipsnade one sunny morning. When we set out I did not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did.

His conversion from atheist to theist to Christian took years.

https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/lewiscs-sur ... -01-h.html