MDB Bible Study

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_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey Lemmie
Lemmie wrote:Rather than the confirmation bias of concluding what one grew up with and what one is comfortable with is the one and only way, and what everyone else believes is simply not,

Do you just assume this because you read a book by Dawkins? Or do you have another reason for the assumption?
i think what huckelberry has proposed is far more unifying.

Huckism?
Cool, looks like huckelberry officially has his first follower.
_honorentheos
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Re: MDB Bible Study

Post by _honorentheos »

Ceebs, have you actually read Surprised by Joy?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

honorentheos wrote:Ceebs, have you actually read Surprised by Joy?

No. While trying to find out something about Lewis that is unrelated to this discussion - I ran across several things - one being this:

C.S. Lewis — His Conversion
One Man’s Road to Jesus
By Dr. David R. Reagan

C.S. Lewis

C.S. Lewis was a professor of Medieval literature at both Oxford and Cambridge Universities before he died in 1963. God’s sense of humor is revealed in the fact that He anointed this great intellectual to become the most popular Christian communicator of this century. His book, Mere Christianity, has been the number one best selling Christian book since it was published at the end of World War II.

Lewis is known as the foremost defender of the Christian faith in this century. His books, The Problem of Pain and Miracles, established his reputation as a great Christian apologist. I highly recommend all these books to you, including his books, The Screwtape Letters and The Great Divorce.

What most people do not know about Lewis is that he was an atheist in his early years and did not come to have a faith in Jesus until he was 32 years old.

I recently discovered a remarkable letter that he wrote to a friend when he was only 18 years old. As you read the following excerpt from that letter, consider how many 18 year olds you know who could write such profound thoughts:

“You ask me my religious views: you know, I think I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies, to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention…

Thus religion, that is to say mythology, grew up. Often, too, great men were regarded as gods after their death — such as Hercules or Odin: thus after the death of a Hebrew philosopher Yeshua (whose name we have corrupted into Jesus), he became regarded as a god, a cult sprang up, which was afterwards connected with the ancient Hebrew Yahweh-worship, and so Christianity came into being — one mythology among many.” [From The Letters of C.S. Lewis by W.H. Lewis]

In his book, Surprised by Joy, Lewis tells how he became a Christian, mainly through the reading of both secular and Christian books. The first step came in 1929 when he was 31 years old.

He had been reading some Christian books over and over again (books by Donne, Browne, Spenser, Milton, Johnson and Chesterton) when he decided to go to town on the bus (Lewis never learned how to drive!). He got on the bus an atheist. As he rode along, “he reconsidered Hegel’s philosophy of the absolute and festooned it with Berkley’s notion of the spirit. What resulted was a philosophical construct he called God.” When his stop came, he got off the bus believing that God did indeed exist.

The first thing that happened to him was a consciousness of sin. He looked inside himself and was appalled by what he saw: “A Zoo of lusts, a bedlam of ambitions, a nursery of fears, a harem of fondled hatreds.” He wanted to pray. But to whom? He did not yet know the God he believed existed. Nonetheless, “I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.”

A year later at age 32 Lewis spent an evening discussing mythology and Christianity with some intellectual friends who were Christians, one of whom was the writer, J.R.R. Tolkien. They challenged him as he had never been challenged before to think critically about Jesus. After the meeting broke up, Lewis could not go to sleep. He continue to wrestle with the concept of Jesus as God in the flesh. By 3:00 a.m. he had decided to accept Jesus as his Savior. Twelve days later he wrote these words to Tolkien: “I have passed on from believing in God to definitely believing in Christ — in Christianity.”

As Lewis reasoned about Jesus and His claim to deity, he kept asking himself, is He God or was He simply what most people say, that is, “a great moral teacher”? He suddenly came to a conclusion that has convicted millions since that time:

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must take your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else he was a madman or something worse.” [Mere Christianity]
_honorentheos
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Re: MDB Bible Study

Post by _honorentheos »

I shared a link to a free PDF of it above. You could read the last two chapters and have a better understanding of his actual conversion process than what you quoted gave. Primary sources, brother.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_huckelberry
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _huckelberry »

Thinking of Lewis, Surprised by Joy.

It is too long ago when I last read this book to remember details. Lewis has always been a strong utilizer and recommender of thought and study in a persons approach to faith. I like him believe there is also a spiritual dimension that is necessary (for Ceeboo, God calls and through the call enables faith in Jesus).

I do not see any way to demonstrate objectively that personal change associated with conversion or the start of Christian faith is miraculous. I believe it is but it is permeated with completely natural thoughts and concerns. It is always linked to receiving the message through natural means. Like prayer it can be seen as a natural act perform by natural people reviewing their thoughts and hopes. For the person praying prayer is that but also has a spiritual dimension making it something larger.
_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

honorentheos wrote:I shared a link to a free PDF of it above. You could read the last two chapters and have a better understanding of his actual conversion process than what you quoted gave. Primary sources, brother.

Thanks!
Much appreciated!
_Lemmie
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Lemmie »

Ceeboo wrote:Hey Lemmie
Lemmie wrote:Rather than the confirmation bias of concluding what one grew up with and what one is comfortable with is the one and only way, and what everyone else believes is simply not,

Do you just assume this because you read a book by Dawkins? Or do you have another reason for the assumption?

Are you serious? I wrote it because I think it. Here is my full opinion, if you would like to respond:
Lemmie:

Rather than the confirmation bias of concluding what one grew up with and what one is comfortable with is the one and only way, and what everyone else believes is simply not, i think what huckelberry has proposed is far more unifying.

Re the Bible study and nicodemus example, is the argument that the then contemporary version of the phrase “born of the Spirit” was unknown to those studying the Tanakh?
_honorentheos
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Re: MDB Bible Study

Post by _honorentheos »

As a believer I thought this quote from Lewis was profound -

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must take your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else he was a madman or something worse.” [Mere Christianity]

Only after getting into the work of both faithful and skeptical text critics of the New Testament did it occur to me it had a fatal flaw. We don't know what Jesus actually said about himself, only what others claim he did and those all have views as to who he was that are what gets reflected in the New Testament. It's a poorly thought out bit of logic once reflected on in the light of the limits of our knowledge of the historical Jesus.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Ceeboo
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _Ceeboo »

honorentheos wrote:As a believer I thought this quote from Lewis was profound -

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must take your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else he was a madman or something worse.” [Mere Christianity]

Yeah - me too!

After getting into the work of both faithful and skeptical text critics of the New Testament did it occur to me it had a fatal flaw. We don't know what Jesus actually said about himself, only what others claim he did and those all have views as to who he was that are what gets reflected in the New Testament. It's a poorly thought out bit of logic once reflected on in the light of the limits of our knowledge of the historical Jesus.

Well, rather than opening up a conversation that would requite another 36 pages of thread, I will simply say this: The great, great majority of New Testament scholars (believers, non-believers and agnostics) conclude the following. Jesus was crucified - the tomb was empty and several people believe they saw a resurrected Jesus. So, we are all left in a similar position: What is the best explanation of the various claims of seeing a resurrected Jesus?
_honorentheos
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Re: MormonDiscussions.com Bible Study

Post by _honorentheos »

Ceeboo wrote:What is the best explanation of the various claims of seeing a resurrected Jesus?

I'll plagerize myself from another thread and copy this over.

The question raised at that time was how trustworthy were the gospels of the New Testament in declaring the core message of Christianity. That being, Jesus of Nazareth as redeemer and savior of the world. To address the question, I suggested looking to the birth and resurrection narratives in the Gospels and what that tells us regarding their reliability.

Many modern scholars agree those who built a church up around Jesus after his death believed he was the Jewish Messiah. This would mean they believed Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah which were popular in Roman Palestine at the time. Examples included being a descendant of King David, being born in Bethlehem, and that he would come to the people riding a donkey or ass. And, he'll be raised from the dead.

To make a case for why the New Testament is a poor witness for Jesus' resurrection, let's first look at how the New Testament describes another event in Jesus' life that would require fulfilling Messianic prophecy - his birth.

Mark, the earliest and probably closest Gospel is silent. Why? We don't know. Some scholars have suggested that Mark does not describe a Jesus who sees himself as the Messiah, but rather one who is declaring the coming of the Son of Man in Daniel who would bring a literal Kingdom of God to the earth. Maybe that's true, maybe not. Either way, Mark does not try to show us parallels between Messianic prophecy and the life of Jesus.

John, the last of the gospels to be composed, is also silent on the physical birth of Jesus. Instead, we are given the poetic description of the Logos. I think it's likely that the author of John was not concerned with proving Jesus was the Jewish messiah (as the Gospel of John is also anti-Semitic in general), but instead focuses on showing the reader that Jesus is much more than that - Jesus is the Word of God and with God from the beginning. The John birth narrative isn't missing, in my opinion as is often stated. Instead, it tells the reader the question of what happened at Jesus' birth is the wrong question.

We are left with the two other synoptic gospels to find out about the birth story of Jesus. And they don't match up on almost every point. Why is that? Since they both used Mark and at least one other common source, this also suggests the earliest sources about Christ's life in circulation did not include a birth narrative. The scholarly suggestion is that there wasn't a codified version of the Nativity at the time of their writing. But the Messiah has to fulfill certain prophecies at his birth. What to do? Most likely, both authors took from legends being shared and fit them together as best they could. They may also have invented pieces of the story from whole cloth.

In Matthew, we see constant reference to prophecy being fulfilled. Jesus is born in Bethlehem. Matthew or his sources (from now on I'll just reference Matthew and Luke as short hand for the potential other source) tell a story about Herod killing all of the male children in Bethlehem age 2 or younger, has wise men from the east visit the infant, sends Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod's men, and of course tells us Mary was a virgin. And there is the genealogy that shows Jesus was a descendant of King David. All of the above are specifically included because there is a scripture somewhere that needed to be addressed associated with beliefs about the Messiah.

Yet none of this matches Luke’s telling other than the general idea that Mary was a virgin.

Luke invents the story of a census to get Jesus to Bethlehem, has shepherds visit Jesus, and tells us Jesus and John the Baptist are related. And there is a virgin birth narrative and a genealogy.

The core stories don't match where there is no original source material to provide background consistency.

The parsimonious answer for why, rather than the apologetic one, is simply that the authors invented a backstory for Jesus that met the requirements that showed Jesus was the Messiah. Because they did not/could not collaborate and there wasn't a common source available at the time, the stories differ.

This gives us a couple of general rules of thumb when examining the gospel authors and the Resurrection account.

First, it gives us a hint that if there is a commonly understood event in Jesus’ life and it has been recorded in one of the source gospels, it is likely to show up as common to Matthew and Luke. But absent such an account, they will fill in the gaps with an eye to ensuring the narrative fulfills Messianic prophecy.

Since the Messiah has to be raised from the dead, and Jesus was the Messiah, it is only natural that both accounts tell us this is so. Both Matthew and Luke had Mark as a source, so we should expect to see Mark’s narrative in the account of the passion leading to the resurrection.

We have Mark’s account in chapters 14-16. They tell us that the priests schemed to have Jesus arrested in Jerusalem but feared a riot by the people, there was a last supper of sorts, Jesus took his disciples and prayed before being betrayed by Judas, that before the Priests they ultimately convict him based on His claiming to be the Messiah, take him to Pilate and claim he called himself the King of the Jews which he does not deny. Pilate releases Barnabas when the Jews cry for Jesus to be crucified, and he is handed over to the Roman soldiers for execution. He is mocked as a would-be king, beaten, crucified, and dies at noon on the day before the Sabbath. His body is given to Joseph of Arimathia who places him in his tomb and has a stone rolled in front of it. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joseph see where he is buried. They wait until after the Sabbath (a night, a day, and a night) and go that next morning described as the first day of the week to wash the body. They wonder who will roll the stone away but find it is already moved. Instead they find a young man in a white robe who tells them that Jesus is not there but has risen. He charges them to go tell Peter and the disciples that Jesus has gone ahead to Galilee and will meet them there. But they don’t go to Peter and tell him as charged. Instead, they are afraid and run away. And Mark ends his story here as evidenced by early manuscript copies and the later inclusion of what is known as the Marcan Appendix. The last verse of Mark before the Marcan Appendix, 16:8, ends with the women who are told of Christ's resurrection leaving and not telling anyone. Why? I don't think anyone can say with certainty. What we do know is that the v. 8 ending is the oldest existent forms of Mark that we have. Not that there was variety in these oldest texts but that they end at v. 8 and others speaking of the Gospel affirm this was the case in the manuscript copies available. Early variants that then follow v. 8 seem to lack cohesive language to suggest the replacement of lost language. Rather, they seem to be there to fill in a gap based on various author's understanding of what followed. It could be that there were oral traditions being passed around and the written variants reflect this. But we don't know.

How the authors of Matthew and Luke deal with this further supports that the text they had ended at what we know as v. 8. So what do Matthew and Luke do with this story when they again lack guiding information in their sources?

Luke, at the end of chapter 23, tells us about the women seeing the body laid to rest and going on the day after the Sabbath to find the stone rolled away. But instead of a young man in a white robe, they are met by two men in heavenly glowing robes who tell them Christ is risen and to go to the apostles. They remember that Jesus said he would rise and do as they were told. Luke tells us of Peter visiting the tomb and wondering. He tells us of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. He tells us of a direct appearance to the 11 who were still in Jerusalem. He tells them all this was in the fulfillment of scripture and Christ ascends into heaven. The 11 rejoice and remain in Jerusalem going often to the temple until Acts tells us about the Day of Pentecost.

Matthew inserts a little piece between the women seeing the stone placed before the tomb and finding it moved away the day after the Sabbath. He has the priest going to Pilate on the Sabbath (but saying the day after preparation day instead of the Sabbath. Kind of like saying the day after Christmas Eve) and claiming that they heard that Jesus proclaim he would rise on the third day after his death. Matthew tells us they feared a deception and ask for a guard and for the tomb to be sealed. Pilate grants this. So when the women go and find the tomb open Matthew has a little story about an earthquake and angels that scare the guards so they leave and we learn they are paid off to tell no one what they saw. Instead, they are to tell everyone they found the small plates of Nephi because God knew the 116 would be stolen…wait, wrong story. They seem similar to me so I mix those up sometimes… ;) Anyway, they are told to tell everyone that Jesus’ disciples stole the body and spread the lie about being resurrected on the 3rd day. Matthew tells us this lie is prevalent among the Jews even in his day. Matthew tells us the women go to the disciples being afraid (as Mark told us) BUT ALSO FULL OF JOY so they are doing as told. Then Jesus appears to them on the way to the disciples and tells them to have the disciples meet him in Galilee. They do so, and the 11 go to Galilee to meet Jesus who tells them they are to be filled with power and go to all nations. The end.

John has his own version of events and, as we’ve noticed with the birth narrative, he isn’t too concerned with what Mark or anyone else that we know of had to say. John includes many different stories of what happened during the passion, has Jesus executed on a different day to make sure it is clear he is the Lamb of God being sacrificed as the other lambs on the day before Passover. We have an entirely different account of who came to the tomb, who saw what, what was said, who saw Jesus where and when, and ultimately an extra chapter that the original author may not have written as the final word.

Like with the birth narrative, when Matthew and Luke are without a common source, their stories diverge wildly. One has the disciples remaining in Jerusalem, while the other has them go to Galilee. One has Jesus appear to many people, the other has Jesus appear to a few. Neither account matches up once we lose Mark as the common touchstone.

What we know: Mark was the first of the Gospels to be written and the other Gospel writers used Mark while not being eyewitnesses to any of the events described. This includes the resurrection of Christ. The closest we come, as modern readers, to the resurrection is in the word of Paul in 1 Cor. 15 who shares what he was taught from James and Peter. It's here he tells the reader that to have hope in Christ in this life only would be miserable. Thus, Christ had to have been raised from the dead.

Given the nature of this board I will only in passing point out that the many, many issues with the Book of Mormon which for Mormons is intended to be a second and confirming witness of Jesus Christ don't help the Mormon believer out in trying to resolve the question based on scriptural evidence.

I see no reasonable support for arguing that the central messages of the Christian gospel should be assumed as a given rather than treated skeptically.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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