Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

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Icarus wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:43 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:27 pm

I just can't go with you on this, Schmo. What I know about brains and how they work tells me quite strongly that there is no fundamental difference between me and, for example, Ajax. We all have instincts that are wired into our brains when we are exposed to perceived danger. We all suffer from the same cognitive biases because our brains basically work in the same way. And nothing in the evolutionary process has prepared us to cope with the firehose of information that smacks us in the face every day. At bottom, we are all trying to do the best we can under impossible circumstances. And we all suffer to some degree because we want things to be other than the way they are. That's what it means to be human. And we are all, most definitely, human.

We know where it leads when groups of people start dehumanizing each other. We've had far too many historical examples not to learn from what happens. Study the Rwandan genocide. Really study it. Ask yourself how Tutsi men were persuaded to slaughter their Hutu wives and children. What drove people to think of locking people inside a church and slaughtering them? How does that happen?

The best advice any has given me in a long time is this: when someone cuts you off in traffic, or honks their horn at you, or is wearing their mask under the nose in the grocery store, or driving around in a big truck with Trump flags flying, take a deep breath and, as you exhale, think or say "just like me." Remind yourself that we are all humans with brains wired up the same way. And that, given a different personal history, we might act exactly the same way.

To dehumanize is to choose the road to madness. Let's not choose that.
I love your posts and agree with you for the most part, but at the same time not all humans are "just like me." There really are psychopaths out there. Not just anyone can be talked into murdering their own family. Ajax is cut from the same cloth that gave us Auschwitz. His hatred is palpable and I refuse to entertain the idea that we're just the same, though I know you're only speaking biologically.
A psychopath is just like me, but is saddled with faulty brain. I can recognize the fact that he may be dangerous and that he may need to be treated in special ways. But I can also recognize that the fact that I am not a psychopath is sheer dumb luck and the psychopath is still a fellow human.

I disagree with you that "not just anyone" can be talked into murdering their own family. I know I sound like a broken record, but spend some time learning about what happened in Rwanda. Those were human brains acting the way human brains behave. Auschwitz was allowed to happen by ordinary human beings who were convinced that other human beings were less than human and an existential threat. You are not an exception.

Your brain is a kludge created evolutionary development over the course of millions of years. It's not designed to be rational. It's "designed" to get your sperm to fertilize as many eggs as possible. Features that had survival value hundreds of thousands of year ago may have no value today or may even work against your survival or the survival of the species. The part of the brain where what we call "rational thought" is the most recent piece of the kludge and it is exceedingly fragile. It can be overridden by something as simple as having to remember a phone number. It is very good at both editing raw data and rationalizing behavior after the fact. It appears that a significant part of what we think of as rational decision making takes place involuntarily, with that part of the brain constructing a rationalization after the fact that we experience as before the fact.

in my opinion, what we know about how the brain works is a great sense of humility. Just as our thinking can change how we act, our actions can change how we think. And most of that happens under the hood - below our levels of conscious perception. So, when I think of Ajax as "just like me" (which I do), it is a recognition that my brain is not fundamentally different than his and that I have no idea what I would be like if I had lived his life.

I do think we all suffer, and an important source of that suffering is illusions that we cling to about ourselves. And that is am important way that we are all united by something. And discovering that we can reduce that suffering by letting go of at least part of that suffering is both empowering and liberating. That's something I wish Ajax could experience. Because I've done the clinging to unhappiness thing, and it's a truly miserable way to live.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:27 pm
I disagree with you that "not just anyone" can be talked into murdering their own family. I know I sound like a broken record, but spend some time learning about what happened in Rwanda. Those were human brains acting the way human brains behave. Auschwitz was allowed to happen by ordinary human beings who were convinced that other human beings were less than human and an existential threat. You are not an exception.
The true issue is the threshold at which these sorts of actions and reactions occur. This obviously differs between individuals, with some folks far more easily pushed (or choosing to willingly step) over that line.

Certainly, if alien space spores infect my family and turn them into zombies that want to feast on my flesh, then I’ll be backed into murdering them to save myself and others. But that threshold won’t be reached simply because someone else voted for the opponent of my candidate. It’s problematic that some folks trend towards the lower threshold.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

Post by Res Ipsa »

canpakes wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:52 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:27 pm
I disagree with you that "not just anyone" can be talked into murdering their own family. I know I sound like a broken record, but spend some time learning about what happened in Rwanda. Those were human brains acting the way human brains behave. Auschwitz was allowed to happen by ordinary human beings who were convinced that other human beings were less than human and an existential threat. You are not an exception.
The true issue is the threshold at which these sorts of actions and reactions occur. This obviously differs between individuals, with some folks far more easily pushed (or choosing to willingly step) over that line.

Certainly, if alien space spores infect my family and turn them into zombies that want to feast on my flesh, then I’ll be backed into murdering them to save myself and others. But that threshold won’t be reached simply because someone else voted for the opponent of my candidate. It’s problematic that some folks trend towards the lower threshold.
I understand, but I think we're always teetering on the edge of fundamental attribution error. In other words, I see myself as rationally reacting to the specific circumstances in which I find myself but Trumpers act the way they do because they are bigots and stupid. That's the error. You don't experience the election of Joe Biden as an existential threat. But what if you did? We haven't gotten to the point that the Hutus did. We haven't dehumanized each other to the point that we describe each other as cockroaches. But once dehumanization starts, it's hard to stop.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

Post by Philo Sofee »

Gunnar wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:25 pm
It still astounds me that subby either can't see or doesn't care how openly corrupt and pathologically dishonest Trump and his enablers are.
It's probably his religion to be that way.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

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Res, I appreciate your message; it's not falling on deaf ears. It feels more like an optimistic philosophy than what's really true, but I think I understand the spirit of it. At the very least, I think it comes from an honest and good place.

I've been thinking for years that humans are kind of funny in that we are all fundamentally the same, but because we can (we have the capacity to analyze stuff), we tend to hyper-focus on each other's differences.

I know what you're saying, and I don't hate conservatives. Let me say that one more time: I don't hate conservatives. I lean conservative myself (although I suppose as I've aged, I've mellowed).

I don't hate conservatives. I hate the idea that Trump is popular. I hate the idea that people think someone like him is necessary, let alone good to lead this country. I hate that so many people don't seem to value democracy. I hate that so many people can simply ignore obvious malfeasance, corruption and incompetence to advance petty party concerns, petty when compared to the irreparable damage Trump's doing. That's the key word, isn't it? Ignore. Trump supporters ignore his behavior; in the truest sense, they are ignorant.

To be honest, however, I'm not as concerned with Trump support as the broader problem of religious, fanatical thought. The Trump cult is only one example, but a disturbing one, given the influence the cult has on everyone else.

So I guess it comes down to the thing I've always said about religion on this board for years: I'm going to criticize the ideas. I'm not really criticizing the people who hold them. If what I say annoys people, maybe they should attack the ideas too.

The final message is this: I'm just some schmo on a message board yelling out what I'm feeling about the current state of our country. Everyone else is entitled to their own opinion. I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just trying to retain my sanity. I don't want to hate anyone, but there are some ideas out there that drive me damned nuts.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

Post by Res Ipsa »

Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:57 am
Res, I appreciate your message; it's not falling on deaf ears. It feels more like an optimistic philosophy than what's really true, but I think I understand the spirit of it. At the very least, I think it comes from an honest and good place.

I've been thinking for years that humans are kind of funny in that we are all fundamentally the same, but because we can (we have the capacity to analyze stuff), we tend to hyper-focus on each other's differences.

I know what you're saying, and I don't hate conservatives. Let me say that one more time: I don't hate conservatives. I lean conservative myself (although I suppose as I've aged, I've mellowed).

I don't hate conservatives. I hate the idea that Trump is popular. I hate the idea that people think someone like him is necessary, let alone good to lead this country. I hate that so many people don't seem to value democracy. I hate that so many people can simply ignore obvious malfeasance, corruption and incompetence to advance petty party concerns, petty when compared to the irreparable damage Trump's doing. That's the key word, isn't it? Ignore. Trump supporters ignore his behavior; in the truest sense, they are ignorant.

To be honest, however, I'm not as concerned with Trump support as the broader problem of religious, fanatical thought. The Trump cult is only one example, but a disturbing one, given the influence the cult has on everyone else.

So I guess it comes down to the thing I've always said about religion on this board for years: I'm going to criticize the ideas. I'm not really criticizing the people who hold them. If what I say annoys people, maybe they should attack the ideas too.

The final message is this: I'm just some schmo on a message board yelling out what I'm feeling about the current state of our country. Everyone else is entitled to their own opinion. I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just trying to retain my sanity. I don't want to hate anyone, but there are some ideas out there that drive me [vulgarity] nuts.
Hey, I’m just some schmo, too. Just trying to figure things out. And I completely understand hating all those things you listed. All of those things frustrate me too.

I don’t know whether I’m being optimistic. I’m really just describing my own perspective — exactly what I’d tell you after knocking back a couple of beers. It’s a perspective that helps me maintain my sanity. Or what’s left of it.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

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I've pretty much let my religious views influence my politics.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

Post by Meadowchik »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:22 pm
canpakes wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:52 pm


The true issue is the threshold at which these sorts of actions and reactions occur. This obviously differs between individuals, with some folks far more easily pushed (or choosing to willingly step) over that line.

Certainly, if alien space spores infect my family and turn them into zombies that want to feast on my flesh, then I’ll be backed into murdering them to save myself and others. But that threshold won’t be reached simply because someone else voted for the opponent of my candidate. It’s problematic that some folks trend towards the lower threshold.
I understand, but I think we're always teetering on the edge of fundamental attribution error. In other words, I see myself as rationally reacting to the specific circumstances in which I find myself but Trumpers act the way they do because they are bigots and stupid. That's the error. You don't experience the election of Joe Biden as an existential threat. But what if you did? We haven't gotten to the point that the Hutus did. We haven't dehumanized each other to the point that we describe each other as cockroaches. But once dehumanization starts, it's hard to stop.
Not cockroaches, but sheep. That's the sin and the demonisation. "We're lions, not sheep" was the reasoning offered by the Facebook friend who was announcing his migration to Parker. He's a football coach and teacher. Sheep is used by both sides.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

Post by Res Ipsa »

Sheep or sheeple is pretty mild compared to what I've seen. Check out some of the rhetoric around this weekend's Million MAGA march.
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Re: Biden Takes Georgia; Violence on Horizon

Post by subgenius »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:30 pm
https://mobile.Twitter.com/JacquiHeinri ... 9661310977

and of course:

https://mobile.Twitter.com/JacquiHeinri ... 9227925507

Edit: Remember this is brought to you by the folks who were so incompetent they booked the Four Seasons landscaping company instead of the Four Seasons hotel for a presser, and even upon learning of their mistake just said, “[vulgarity] it. Our supporters are too stupid to care anyway.”

- Doc
sez the guy who believes Pelosi was conned by her hairdresser.
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