Last week two young teachers get arrested

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

subgenius wrote:"Technically" there is a significant difference between being convicted by allegations and being convicted by evidence and due processs.

Wut. If you're, uh, convicted you're convicted.

Primarily this difference is the former is the habit for hair-on-fire tards and the latter is the habit for adults with basic social and thinking skills.

I don't think you understand, literally, the difference between a conviction and an allegation.


Man. Just... DUMB.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_cafe crema
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _cafe crema »

EAllusion wrote:
Regarding what this thread is about, it looks like the women might be facing sentences that are too harsh, but them being attractive has nothing to do with it nor are they "girls." I think DT highlights these points in an effort to point out that the high schoolers they had relationships with probably wanted it, but given the student/teacher relationship it's definitely dubious. I would agree that the age gap doesn't make this as serious it would be if there were younger victims, but there probably some be some level of sanction for it.



The video that DT repeatedly linked to and refers to as making sense, is about a 36 year old woman who had sex with her 16 year old student.
_The CCC
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _The CCC »

[quote="Doctor CamNC4Me"
So, you're cool with Joseph Smith, an already married man, marrying a 14-year-old behind his wife's back because it wasn't illegal?

That doesn't make any sense. Bigamy was illegal.

Help me make sense of your position because it's actually worse than what these teachers did.

- Doc[/quote]

I never said I was cool with it. I'm glad we no longer practice it. All I've ever said is that marrying a 14 year old in early 19th Century America was not illegal. You are entitled to your opinion. What those teachers did is illegal in 21st Century America.
_EAllusion
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _EAllusion »

café crema wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
Regarding what this thread is about, it looks like the women might be facing sentences that are too harsh, but them being attractive has nothing to do with it nor are they "girls." I think DT highlights these points in an effort to point out that the high schoolers they had relationships with probably wanted it, but given the student/teacher relationship it's definitely dubious. I would agree that the age gap doesn't make this as serious it would be if there were younger victims, but there probably some be some level of sanction for it.



The video that DT repeatedly linked to and refers to as making sense, is about a 36 year old woman who had sex with her 16 year old student.


Whether they were young or not isn't relevant. (They do look youngish). I was just pointing out my best guess as to why DT felt the need to emphasize it. I would agree with DT in that I think their actions, while wrong, do not merit the level of sentences they are facing. DT isn't clear on what he thinks should happen. The TYT video argues termination, but no criminal penalties, so that might be what he favors. My position is a tougher call that probably requires the kind of detail we don't have that normally comes out during a trial, but as a rule of thumb I'd probably be in the ballpark of termination, loss of teaching license, and probation to short prison sentence. I strongly disagree with the trend of prosecutors using child porn charges against consensual teen sexting. We're talking about around the age of sexual maturity where it is hard to make distinctions because of differences in individual development, but 16, almost 17, is significantly different than 14. It's bad, but it's not lock them up and throw away the key bad.

The fact that they are young, attractive, or women shouldn't have anything to do with it.
_cafe crema
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _cafe crema »

EAllusion wrote: The TYT video argues termination, but no criminal penalties, so that might be what he favors. My position is a tougher call that probably requires the kind of detail we don't have that normally comes out during a trial, but as a rule of thumb I'd probably be in the ballpark of termination, loss of teaching license, and probation to short prison sentence. I strongly disagree with the trend of prosecutors using child porn charges against consensual teen sexting. We're talking about around the age of sexual maturity where it is hard to make distinctions because of differences in individual development, but 16, almost 17, is significantly different than 14. It's bad, but it's not lock them up and throw away the key bad.

The fact that they are young, attractive, or women shouldn't have anything to do with it.


I read the "young" part to mean that the teacher is close to the students age so it's not that bad. I'm not sure what DT thinks should happen either and the teacher in his OP is facing 2 counts that could result in 12 months each, so 2 years max if jail time is given.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

The CCC wrote:I never said I was cool with it. I'm glad we no longer practice it. All I've ever said is that marrying a 14 year old in early 19th Century America was not illegal. You are entitled to your opinion. What those teachers did is illegal in 21st Century America.


I said Joseph Smith committed various crimes, one of which was literally bigamy. I literally wanted an answer to that and you're justifying bigamy because he married a 14-year-old.

He was a literal criminal.

Are you cool with him being a criminal bigamist, and subsequently lying about?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _Res Ipsa »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Because there are multiple considerations at play in these cases. Breach of trust is one of them. The constitutional freedom of speech is another. Criminalizing racist speech almost certainly is prohibited under the Constitution.


I think uou are missing the point. So if a teacher psychologically harms a student by insulting him how would that not be a breach of trust? Is a breach of trust only when it involves sex? Even thought 17 years old is above the legal age.

Res Ipsa wrote:It looks like an interesting collection of essays. I'll have to give it a read. I don't think that one has to believe that sex is an abomination to conclude that teachers who ____ students should do some prison time.


I wonder if other countries arrest teachers who have sex with students that are old enough to legally consent. Please read the book, you will find it very interesting.


I don't think anyone should be homeless for the rest of his life.


Many sex offenders end up homeless. The teachers will likely be added to sex offenders.


Hey DT,

I read the material you linked. It's actually not a book -- it's the introduction to a collection of essays. I might pick up a copy -- sounds interesting.

I'm not sure I buy the thesis of the book, given that the introduction starts by listing all the ways sexual freedom has expanded over the past few decades. Rather than an overall war on sex, I came away from the introduction feeling like it was more of a number of discrete circumstances in which the way society deals with sex has become increasingly dysfunctional. For example, if the introduction is correct and the main effect of human trafficking laws has been to punish sex workers, then that's a problem we should deal with. Similarly, the whole notion of labeling teenagers who sext pictures to each other as sex offenders is, in my opinion, insane. At this point, having read only the introduction, I'm not buying into the framing.

The introduction is very good at picking out extreme examples of what appears to be injustice and highlighting them. Are they representative? I don't know. I hope the articles themselves would shed some light on that.

Climbing up to 60,000 feet on this issue, I strongly believe that the rate we throw people into prison is crazy. I think the place to start with that is non-violent drug crimes. I heard a republican congress critter talk about prison reform to move more toward rehabilitation, which I hope is a good sign that the pendulum is swinging back from an extreme emphasis on punishment.

Maybe reform is needed in the area of sentencing for sex crimes. I'm aware that there are cases that seem very unjust on their facts, but a I've explained, that's a very difficult problem to deal with in our system. Handing back to judges a little more discretion in sentencing would, I think, help reduce the occurrence of those extremes. Otherwise, pardons and commutation of sentences are all we have.

I don't know what the statistics are on how often people convicted of sex crimes become homeless. Elimination of or reforms to sex offender registries would likely help reduce whatever rate that is. It may be more effective to reduce the problem by addressing homelessness in general rather than one category of homeless folks. I don't have a good enough grasp of the facts to figure that out.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

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_EAllusion
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _EAllusion »

This is loosely related to the above post, but there was real momentum for meaningful sentencing reform at the federal level with true bipartisan support. That was quashed with the election of Donald Trump. I'm cautiously optimistic that it'll still be there once he is out of office, but it definitely feels like a lost opportunity.
_Chap
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _Chap »

As a parent, I want there to be clear rules in place to make it plain to teachers that in addition to the normal prohibition against adults having sexual relations with minors (which in my jurisdiction means those under 16), it is also an offence for someone in a high school teacher-pupil relationship to have sexual relations with a student.

Although I want the rules to be effectively enforced, I would personally be happy for any breach of the latter rule to be punishable by permanent exclusion from the teaching profession. I think that is sanction enough, and so long as no other law is broken or there are no special aggravating circumstances amounting to coercion (such as threatening bad grades to induce a sexual relationship), I don't feel the need to see anybody sent to prison.
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_DoubtingThomas
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Re: Last week two young teachers get arrested

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

café crema wrote: I'm not sure what DoubtingThomas thinks should happen either and the teacher in his OP is facing 2 counts that could result in 12 months each, so 2 years max if jail time is given.


In the OP I mentioned two teachers, but video is talking about other teachers, sorry for the confusion.
I agree they need to get fired, but sending them to prison is unnecessary. Prison should be for rapists and violent criminals, not harmless 20 year old girls.
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